Finding Success in Failure with Sam Jacobs

Michael McNary: 00:00:00

Welcome to Mimeo's Talk of the Trade. I'm Mike McNary. In addition to leading the sales organization here at Mimeo, I'm also interested in unlocking the secrets of sales and marketing. In each episode, I talked with creative leaders to find out how they approach problems like motivating sales teams, structuring their revenue cycle, and getting product to market. At the end of the conversation, you and I have new takeaways to apply to our everyday life. Let's jump into today's episode.

Michael McNary: 00:00:28

Hey everyone, Mike McNary here. Welcome to Mimeo Talk of the Trade. Today's episode is finding success and failure. How Sam Jacobs turned his experiences into a goldmine for sales professionals. Our guest is Sam Jacobs. Sam is the founder and CEO of pavilion. He's also the host of one of my favorites, the Sales Hacker Podcast. Sam, it's great to have you. Welcome to the podcast.

Sam Jacobs: 00:00:55

Thanks for having me, Mike.

Michael McNary: 00:00:56

We're going to talk quite a bit about Pavilion in a moment. But I wanted to start out by asking you about the Sales Hacker Podcast. You know, I'm a big listener. I think you have great guests and great takes. How did you get involved with that project initially?

Sam Jacobs: 00:01:11

I got involved, uh, I know... I've known Max Altschuler for a long time. And he reached out to me in 2017. To - and there's a bunch of reasons why, for whatever reason, the fall of 2017 was sort of a turning point in my life - but he reached out to me then. And he said, "Hey, we're gonna do a podcast with sales hacker. I thought I was said...I said to the team, I would never do it unless I could find the right host. I think you should be the host. Do you want to do it?" And I took no time at all. It took about a nanosecond. I said, "Of course, I want to do it. Yeah, Sign me up. Coach put me in." So. So we, we kicked around the format for a little while. And this, again, was all in 2017. And then we formally launched in, I think, March of 2018. And I've been doing it for three and a half years, almost four years.

Michael McNary: 00:01:59

Yeah, you have quite a few episodes and covered quite a few topics on it. What's your, you know, a few years later now, what's your favorite part about doing the podcast these days?

Sam Jacobs: 00:02:11

Well, I mean... if you want the truth, here's the truth. The truth is that, you know, there's this old phrase, no conflict, no interest. So my favorite thing about it is that it helps me reach lots and lots of people. I obviously love talking to interesting people and interviewing them. But I also, I really like the the idea that I can spread the word about Pavilion to an audience that is directly related to the people that we're trying to enroll into our membership and do it in a way that's not hitting people over the head, because what we've negotiated this point is that Pavilion can get sort of a permanent sponsorship, and in exchange for that, they can keep all the ad revenue that comes from other sponsors, and they don't need to pay me anything. But of course, it benefits, you know, the company that I run during the day. So that's, that's my - and that, and again, just sort of like tying it back to the very beginning. Because I know one of the questions is like, "Hey, I do this thing called Pavilion, it was called Revenue Collective back then, how did it grow so quickly?" And there's, there's a bunch of answers, but one of the answers is the Sales Hacker Podcast, actually, because I started doing the podcast, and they had, you know, like, there's 100,000 people on the Sales Hacker mailing list, maybe 200,000. And that was how Tom Glason in London and Andrew Purcell in Amsterdam and all of these people heard about what we were doing and said, "Hey, I want to start a chapter in my city for what was then called Revenue Collective." And they heard about it through the podcast.

Michael McNary: 00:03:29

Yeah, you do have a big, you know, audience and I can imagine that, you know, intermingling, the two is going to have benefits on both sides. But yeah, I'm a big fan. And you know, when Pavilion, I think is, when featured I think it's done well. And I can see it driving a lot of engagement, because I think you're onto something with Pavilion. Let's dig into Pavilion a little bit right? You know, for our audience that might not be familiar with your organization. Why don't we start out with some background on the organization and its mission overall, Sam?

Sam Jacobs: 00:03:59

Sure. The organization Pavilion is a paid membership community focused on what we call professional development and career enablement, which is a way of saying that people pay to be members. And in exchange for paying to be a member, we build things to help you navigate your career more effectively, to help you be better at your job. And to help you achieve the results that you're trying to achieve. We started off focused on sales and marketing and customer success, revenue functions. And that's why the original name was called Cevenue collective. And my background is as a sales leader, so that you know, 90%, or of the people in the community come from a revenue function. They come from RevOps, they come from sales, marketing, CS, but that's what it is. And you know, the foundation of it is community, people coming together. But it's not... It's not networking for its own sake. We use the community to build products and services that have a practical impact on your ability to be good at sales, to be a good executive to find the next job to make sure that you're negotiating for that job in the right way, but really, so that you can be as impactful as you possibly could be in your role. That's um, that's what we're trying to do the specific stated mission is to help all of our members unlock and achieve their professional potential, which is a sort of a highfalutin way of saying that we, and I, believe that there's greatness inside a lot of us. And a lot of us are just struggling to figure out how to bring it out into the world. And we're struggling with the playbook and we're struggling with the steps what steps should we take, how do we get there? How do we become a CRO? And so we try to demystify that, we try to provide you the concrete tools that you need, so that you can become whatever you want to be if you want to be a CRO you can become that if you want to be CEO, which is what I am now, you can become that.

Michael McNary: 00:05:44

Yeah, I think that's really compelling. And I love the mission, because I think you're right, you know, folks who want to get somewhere in their career, you know, whether it be sales or another revenue function, and it's not so clear as to what the right steps are, or how they should navigate one aspect of their career or their path versus another. And having that community I think is really valuable, especially people who have done it or had some similar instances, you know, going up the ladder themselves. So there's a lot of value there. Now, you know, you described what it is today. And I candidly, you know, I know so many people who have had fantastic experiences with Pavilion didn't really start out as this fully realized thing, though, right? In the beginning... Yeah, what what was your goal initially, right, you know, cuz this was a, it was almost a networking, like, it started as a meetup group in some respects. Right?

Sam Jacobs: 00:06:36

That's exactly what it was. Is, you had no, just, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm not, I don't know, I'm not, I'm not Elon Musk, or something like that. I don't have some vision about going to Mars. And this is one part of it. It started off because I was getting I was, I was in a lot of turbulence in my career. And in the point being, like, I was seven and a half years at one company, I kind of like, became some sort of senior and well paid in my late 20s, early 30s. And then through my 30s, you know, you kind of become accustomed to thinking of yourself in a certain way. So I became accustomed to think of myself as an executive at a startup. But I was getting bounced around a lot, you know, I was at a place called Axial for four and a half years, and I got fired from there. And then I was a place called LiveStream for 18 months... didn't get fired, but the company I thought was going to run out of money. So I jumped ship and went to the Muse, and was hired to be their chief revenue officer, and I was fired there after nine months. And then and so all of this was happening. And it's not just, you know, I talked about being fired. And it... maybe some people smile, but it obviously sucks. And beyond being... beyond sucking, you know, the world that I'm in, which is startup land, it's like every time... I'm not a - I'm not a venture capitalist, right, I can't make 200 bets, and have one of them pay off and have that return the fund, you know. I make one bet at a time when I'm working somewhere. And so when those bets don't work out, and you are getting older, and you are feeling time pass you by, you start freaking out a little bit. And- and so I started Revenue Collective really as just like a dinner club for me and my friends so that we could at least commiserate and but also share best practices, make sure that we understood the best way to do our jobs, and to help each other and support each other. And also to have visibility on the next job. Because if we were getting canned all the time, then then we would need to know what our options are at any given time. So that's what it was. But I guess the thing I would say, you know, which is sort of the point is like, I never... I'm not a big fan of the word networking, so to speak, you know, because I'm not, it's not for no reason, right? Like, I'm always been of the mind that, like, there's a reason we're getting together. And that reason is to help people specifically achieve their goals. And so like, I want to "network" quote, unquote, but I want to, I want to meet people so that I can help them achieve something, whether it's making introductions, they can find a job or, you know, making introductions, they can hire a candidate or make an introduction, so they can learn more about some go to market strategy that they don't have any experience with. So it started off to your point, Mike, a free dinner club. And then like I said, fall 2017, a lot changed. And one of the things that changed was when I was fired from the Muse I said, pardon my French, but I said, "Fuck this."

Michael McNary: 00:09:24

Yeah.

Sam Jacobs: 00:09:24

And I need a source of revenue that extends beyond my employer, because I, I just cannot keep putting all my eggs in one basket anymore. And so I started, I called Kevin O'Malley at SalesLoft. He was the VP of Marketing at SalesLoft at the time, and I said, "Will you give me some money to sponsor this club, this dinner club that I'm that I'm running?" And he said, "Absolutely, we would love to." And then I said, Okay, I'm also going to charge dues, and there's about, you know, 30 or 40 people in there. And I said, it's only going to be 50 bucks a month. And there was a couple people that are like, you know, screw you. I'm not paying to be your friend. Right? But most people paid. And so beginning January 1, 2018, we had recurring revenue from dues. And we had some sponsorship revenue. And, you know, and then I just kept pulling the thread, so to speak, like I kept just doing the, the thing that seemed like the right next thing. And then the next big jump or milestone was I got fired again, at the end of 2018. And that's when, you know, my wife, and my mom and a bunch of people were like, "Dude, you got ...this thing working for other people is not working out. So, like, let's give it a shot where you work for yourself." And so I started working on it full time, three years ago.

Michael McNary: 00:10:38

I love... I love the candor, as you explain that, Sam, it's great. No, I just think it's fantastic. And it's, you know, one after another, and I think, you know, you've landed somewhere that it sounds like, it makes more sense for you. But I also get the sense, you know, I, you know, know, a little bit and you're pretty altruistic cat, you know, you put a lot of people in touch for just for the sake of, you know, I think what that does for the world in a positive light, and you want to help other professionals, especially, you know, in the revenue functions, do you think that, you know, this has given you the ability to kind of maybe protect some other people from having experiences like you have? Do you think that that's been some gratifying part about this, whether it's been conscious or subconscious?

Sam Jacobs: 00:11:20

It's conscious, I know, exactly. I consider, you know, I don't know if I'm the luckiest man in the world, but I feel incredibly, incredibly, incredibly blessed every single day. And I never thought it would become what it is, we've got 7000 members all over the world, you know, we're at about an $11 million run rate, and we're gonna get to 20 next year. So I feel so damn lucky. Because it's not just that, like the business is working. Because it's, it's not I'm not selling, you know, printer cartridges, you know, I'm not selling IT support, I'm selling help, like, literally the business, the point of the company, is to help other people. That is the reason why we exist. So people pay money to get help, and we try to deliver that help. And if we don't deliver that help, then they stop paying us. And if we do, then they do. And so my point is like, yeah, like, it's, it's been incredible. It's like it, we get feedback all the time about how we've helped people, we've changed their lives, we changed their career, they got promoted, they found the job that they wanted to get. Even just this week, you know, a friend of mine, a woman named Stephanie Cox, and she's, uh, she was when I got to know her, right, she was the VP of Marketing at Lumavate. And in Indianapolis, that's when I got to know her a couple years ago, and Kyle Lacey started our Indianapolis chapter. And I got to know Steph because she's just a great marketer, and she was active in the community. And then she got promoted to President. And this year, we started a CEO pavilion. And, you know, I said, Steph, your title's not CEO, but you know, we want we want diversity in the CEO group. So come join us. And of course, she's amazing. And then this week, she got promoted to CEO. And, you know, it's...

Michael McNary: 00:13:01

Self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, exactly. Love it.

Sam Jacobs: 00:13:05

I'm not saying... listen, she did it on our own. I'm not saying we did it. I'm just saying she, that she, she thanked us publicly as one possible input into her success among many, many. And first and foremost of which is her own talents and capabilities. But that's just, that's awesome. And that's just awesome. To see somebody achieve what they're trying to achieve.

Michael McNary: 00:13:24

Yeah, I agree. And I imagine, as the numbers have kind of grown, right, as you said, you started out as one thing, and it's gotten quite bigger. And you talk about the numbers and that it's global at this point, you know, so despite this, besides the scale, and you know, the actual kind of feedback, is there anything that's been like really surprising about the evolution, right, maybe where you thought you had a sense of where it was going, and then it took maybe a sharp turn in a different direction, or there was maybe something that you really loved about it that you didn't think was going to be one of your favorite aspects of running the organization.

Sam Jacobs: 00:13:58

The biggest surprise is that it still works, roughly. And that's, and that's because, like I said, fundamentally, you frankly, fundamentally, Rev-you know, Pavilion is an idea. You know, like, that's, it's an idea about helping other people. And what I mean by that is, I don't, I don't talk to all of these 7000 people, like, I'm not, I'm not helping each and every one of these people individually, but we are teaching them to help each other. And so they are giving us feedback that like, everybody in the community is so welcoming, and they've already had a bunch of amazing conversations. And that's, that's because we just hammer the culture and we hammer the Code of Conduct over and over and over again. And so it gets, you know, it's, that's the virality that's the technology. We don't have a platform, yet. We built a company worth, you know, $100 million, according to investors, you know, who knows if it would be worth that two years ago, but today it is. But um, we built that without our own platform. We have our platform in beta but it's just a stitched together compendium of like a bunch of other third party services like Slack and zoom and all that. But the point is like, it doesn't matter, because the fundamental technology is this idea that people believe what we're saying about our values, and they transmit that to the next person and the next person. And so it's this long succession of, of people watching us live by our values, and then sharing that with the next person. There's this guy,Yair Areli, and he works, I think, at a company called Datarails now. And he used to work at Sisense. And, you know, he's a, he's a bit of a curmudgeon. And so, you know, for a little while, he's kind of on the fence about about Pavilion. And then he was looking for a new, a new job. And I introduced him to my friend Yoav, who was... used to work at a company called Optimove and now works at Contractbook. And, and I had made an introduction to Yoav that ultimately ended up getting him his new job. And so Yoav made a bunch of the same introductions to Yair. And the point that I'm making is that Yair was just totally blown away. He's like, "why are you doing this?" And Yoav was like, "well, because you remember a Pavilion! Of course, I'm doing it, you know, that's what we do." And so now Yair is one of our biggest advocates, right, because it a lot of what we're building and distributing and transmitting into the universe is like, hey, there's no, there's no catch. You know, like, there's no, we're not full of shit. This is not a gimmick, this is not a scam, like this is real. There's a world where you are celebrated for helping other people and other people will help you in return. And you can do business that way. And that is a way of doing business. That is not a sacrifice. Right. That's the That's the fundamental mission. And that's why, because the biggest complaint, right, like what, as you as I'm sure you would... you can assume the biggest piece of negative feedback or criticism or disappointment, or whatever is like, this thing got too big too quickly. It's not as exclusive or intimate. I thought I was joining the Elks Club or, you know, the Shriners or something like that.

Michael McNary: 00:16:54

Right. Who are all these new people?

Sam Jacobs: 00:16:56

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And they, and, you know, a big part of our messaging for next year is like, listen, flip your brain, that's not the point. The point is that when there's a million people in pavilion, those are a million people that you can do business with more easily, with more confidence and more trust than are not because all of those people have agreed to our Code of Conduct. Does that mean that they're not takers, and people that are insincere, and assholes, you know, in that are making their way into the system? Of course, it's not a perfect system, but relative to LinkedIn, relative to like the rest of the world, these are people that are more likely to, right? There's so much peer pressure within Pavilion to do a good thing, to be a good person, to help another person that even like the jerks are, feel this pressure, you know, they're like, "Shit, I got to do this, you know, and otherwise." So

Michael McNary: 00:17:45

I like it, maybe, you know, and I think that, you know, what you're saying makes a lot of sense to me in that, you know, these days that, you know, everything is experiential, right, everybody wants to have a great experience, and whatever they're doing, and, you know, we also talk it specifically, but not isolated to the corporate environment, about culture, right. And I think that is experiential in some way. And in the business version of it. And people, I'd imagine the network that big, probably don't have all great experiences with where they're coming from culturally, and where you know, they've worked or who they've been able to collaborate with, and they get to walk into this network of competent people that are bought in to be, you know, altruistic, you know, willing to, you know, espouse the values of the organization and take care of one another, you know, I don't know that that to me would probably seem like a haven to a lot of people and make it very compelling.

Sam Jacobs: 00:18:38

Yeah, I think "haven" is exactly the right word.

Michael McNaryI guess I ask you this: 00:18:40

you talked about what it was to start and what it is now. At what point did you really know you had something right, something that you could turn into your own, we'll call your your enterprise, right? Like you said, this is $100 million valued operation now. And you know, when was it that you said, "you know, what, there's something here and I might be able to really make this with my mother and my, my sister and folks in my life and telling me I should do and make something of my own."

Sam Jacobs: 00:19:05

There hasn't just been one moment, because the whole time there, to be honest, like, I felt like there was something I just didn't know quite what it was. The the inflection points... The first was COVID. So that was, we grew through 2019. And we, you know, we were beating all of our goals, but still still, it was, "Yeah, you know, it's great. This will be a great lifestyle business for me", you know, like the my initial, the first it was side income in 2018. And then in 2019, it was the way tax laws work in the US, right, you flow every expense through the business and this will be a great - and you know, I pay myself 300 grand a year through this thing, that's the equivalent of like six or 700 grand, you know, for working on a W ...as a W two employee. So 2019 was like, Okay, this can be like, This is great, you know, I can pay my rent, I'm happy. I get to do my own thing and call my own shots and I get to pay my on rent, and I don't have to ask permission Isn't this wonderful and I was very, very happy. And then in 2020, you know, we were, we're layering up a little bit, you know, starting to hire one or two people here and there, and COVID came. And we pivoted very aggressively into digital and had, you know, went from having one webinar a month to 40 a week, and really empowering our members to become, you know, experts and to showcase them. And we started doing benchmarking surveys. And it became, which was a good thing to be honest with you, not a dinner club, right, there was nobody to go to dinner with. And so it became a much more even playing field globally. You know, if you were a member in Minneapolis, you now have the same access that a member in New York had. And so that was an inflection point. And then, and that at that inflection point, you know, culminated like in the first time, I looked at the business checking account, and there was over a million dollars there, and I don't think I've ever seen a million dollars in one place, like, in cash, you know, not that... not that I was gonna do anything with it, but it's like, I've never seen that before. And there it is. And, and then, and then, of course, you know, then the next inflection point when it all came together wasn't like one thing necessarily. But in February, you know, Peter Fallon from Elephant Ventures reached out and wanted to talk about the company. And, you know, two weeks later, they had a term sheet to invest 25 million on an $80 million pre money valuation. And that, you know, that also coincided with the rebrand, coincided with everything we were trying to do this year. And, and that was like, a now, you know, now I'm not bought in, you know, now, in the sense of like, now, I'm like, this... I don't know how big it can be. I still don't, but I know that what we're doing is needed. And, and I know that a lot of companies don't have the resources to train people functionally, right? They, you can take and train ...Mimeo can train people on on printing, and on the product that Mimeo sells. But it's not going to be able to provide this comprehensive sales training university or if it does, it's just one perspective. And, and meanwhile, there are not enough people out there. So everybody needs to come in from different industries in different functions. And you're gonna have to hire ex waiters, and all kinds of different people from different backgrounds, and they're going to need training and professional development. And meanwhile, you know, Zoomers, and millennials and all of us are changing jobs more often than ever, and there's no one place where you can say, here's where I'm going to plot and map my career. Right, you can say you may be doing on LinkedIn, but LinkedIn doesn't care about you. LinkedIn cares about selling you to sales navigator licenses and recruiter licenses and things like that. So it just seems like, you know, I don't know how big it can be. But I think it can be way bigger than it is.

Michael McNary: 00:22:40

Yeah. And those are some pretty rock'n'roll moments that you described, right? The million dollars in the account, you know, getting the rebrand and scale and getting that investment. And also, you know, being a resource during a time where people were starving for something that would help them get through an upside down and unprecedented kind of work and personal scenario, right? So there was companies that kind of went the other way with it, right? Because they weren't maybe equipped to deal with the new circumstances. And then I think the things that were really adding value, saw a ton of engagement in the first 12 months of the pandemic. So it's not necessarily a unique story. But I think it's unique to companies that are really adding value because people didn't have much time for anything else.

Sam Jacobs: 00:23:28

Yeah. And we, like many things, right, that we were not the first I'm not the first, this is not the first sales networking club. This is not the fir... Like there was MSP. We're not the first Google Group. Right. And there was a dinner club, you know, of dinner platform here in New York, called Voray. And Voray, David Olk, and his company Voray used to plan a lot of dinners and sales. And, you know, there's no, it's not like we had some, you know, this, obviously, I don't come from like a trust fund background ...note, but like, this was an open field, this was an open opportunity for a lot of different people. And we just had a, I guess, a unique perspective on it, because you're right, Mike, you know, Voray, among other businesses, like many businesses went to zero, even though you know, they had the same, probably more resources, and a better a better opportunity than we had, in some ways.

Michael McNary: 00:24:23

So yeah, and that's really interesting. And I've been thinking about it, you know, throughout this conversation, and even in preparing for this discussion, Sam, the idea of, you know, there's not it has become quite unique and innovative. I believe that and things that you're saying, I think make it very singular, right. But, you know, a lot of those things took a while to develop, right. So, you know, why? Why did did this succeed in ways that other comparable or similar initiatives didn't?

Sam Jacobs: 00:24:56

So the first thing is anybody that tells you if they know precisely why they were successful is full of shit. So that's standard number one.

Michael McNary: 00:25:02

I agree with that.

Sam Jacobs: 00:25:03

Sometimes you just don't know sometimes the universe conspires you know, and and I feel product market fit for me. I mean, I sometimes, you know, I don't know what I sound like I sound New Agey, I guess. But I do believe this stuff like product market fit is about alignment with the universe, you know, just about like, the world is going somewhere. And it's not about you changing necessarily where the world goes. It's about you listening to the world and understanding it and being quiet and still so that you can be caught by the breeze in a way. Anyway, that's poetry. But the point is, I, so first of all, we had some marketing, here's the marketing insight that we have that other people have since copied, we told people to put the fact that they were members on their LinkedIn. Right. So. So that was, I don't know if it was brilliant. But it worked. Right? Because people started seeing it. They started seeing recruiters started seeing it, what the hell is this thing? Who is this, and then it became a badge of honor. And then you felt like you weren't part of the club, if you didn't have it on your LinkedIn.

Michael McNary: 00:25:58

I agree.

Sam Jacobs: 00:25:59

So that was a thing. That was like one specific tactic. The second part of it again, was that people really felt the values. But we've talked about that. The third thing I will say is that I think too many people are. There's a community playbook. And I don't follow that community playbook. What is the community playbook, the community playbook is that the community is free, and that you monetize all of the corners of the community, you start a job board, you sell the shit out of it to sponsors, you may be I don't know, create some kind of annoying fund or something like that. Maybe you have a bunch of like referral agreements in place, and like, you've got all kinds of kickbacks. And every time you make an introduction to some new CRM, you get 10%. That is, for me, you know, common our thinking that's what my coach would call it, right? Which it's just so short sighted, right? It's short sighted, because you're just everybody knows the game. And they know that the bigger you get, the more that, you know, it'll just be, you know, bombarded with sponsors. And so, this, again, it's so simple. It's just so simple. Just pay... just charge them, just charge them, and then stay away from every other business. Don't start a recruiter, right. There, we have so many partners in Pavilion, and so many people are saying, hey, you know, if you've introduced me to so and so you, I'll pay you 10%. And the worst thing in the world I could have done was take that money. Because once you start taking that money, you start wanting more of it, right? It becomes... every revenue source becomes like a center of gravity, like a snowball rolling downhill. And pretty soon you're like, oh, I need that money. I want that money. I paid my rent with that money. And so if you can just stay pure and say... and people are so surprised, they're like, "Well, if I you know, get consulting clients do you need to cut?" I'm like, "No, we don't need to cut, we have the cut, the cut is all in CAC to LTV, that's the cut. "The cut is I need people to stick around and pay us for as long as possible. If they stopped paying us, we will not be doing a good job. And if they do pay us, we will be doing a great job and every place that I could have charged money would... I would have created new competitors. Right? If I wanted to start an executive search firm, I'm now competing with Daversa and with True and with Kindred and with every other executive search firm. This way, I don't have to compete with them this way I have I can partner with them. This way I can be on great relationships with Gary Constance from Daversa and Matt Ocken from Kindred. And Pat and David Ives and everybody else from and Brad Stadler from from True, right, because I am not competing with them. That's the beauty. And so I think that that's, it's an insight that takes a long time to understand, right? Because there's no short term fix, it's like, I'm just gonna do this, it's gonna take a while. But my bet is that it can be bigger this way, by having everybody pay, and it'll we'll go one by one by one by one. But then once we build it, once you're at 7000 people, everybody's not going to cancel all at once. You got a really strong, robust business, it's the beauty of recurring revenue.

Michael McNary: 00:28:50

Yeah, you know, you were able to maintain that purity, right, because it did grow pretty quickly, right. And you had this success in a timeframe that is, you know, unprecedented in some respects. But it was definitely fast enough that you didn't have to seek a lot of alternate revenue streams, right, you could keep it a pretty intact and you didn't have to kind of, I don't know, blur the lines of where your, you know, mission to stay clean in, devoid of other things that are driving your, you know, day to day mission. I think that's really cool. But I think it also, you know, the universe conspired to make it doable. Let's talk about, you know, where you said a couple times during this conversation that, you know, you don't know how big it can get. What are your goals regardless, like what do you want to do next?

Sam Jacobs: 00:29:41

In the short term, there's three things I'm super excited about over the course the next 12 to 18 months. The first is learning. We just hired a VP of learning from 2U. And she's going to be developing not just Pavilion University, the traditional concepts of like a school or a course ,but also thinking freshly about online ways that you can absorb and apply information that are specific to being online that aren't just a model for a class. Like maybe it's a quiz that you take every day that assesses where you are in your CRO development. But anyway, learning is going to be a huge emphasis for us. The second big emphasis is going to be premium communities. So while you know, while there are AI, while there's a good reason why I think Pavilion should be big, because as I mentioned, it helps people do business better. There are people that want elevated experiences, they want workshops, they want personal transformation, they want to ensure they're willing to spend a little bit more money to transform how they, how they really think about their career in a more handheld concierge style way. So we're going to be introducing those, and we're already doing that with CEO Pavilion, as I mentioned with Stephanie Cox. And then the third thing is, which I'm most excited about is really around gamification. And that's about rewarding people. Basically, all of you know, all of the things that people do they answer a question, they serve as a mentor, they take a class, they teach a class, whatever it is, we want to establish points for all of those things, and reward people for their... for their behavior, we're kind of calling it the kindness score, and for lack of a better word for now. But basically, you know, to create a system where we can surface the people that are the most helpful to the community. And then ultimately, not just like, let other people know, which, of course is step one. But step two is, is really rewarding them. And, ideally, you know, my actual goal is to create some kind of monetizable financial value, to helping provide support back to other members in the community. So that's like the long term goal. The near term goal is like, let's just collect all the data and tell people, these are the 10 best, most helpful. People in the Indianapolis chapter, these are the 10 best, most helpful people in, you know, in sales, or whatever, and have that be a constant thing that's running so that people feel some sense of reward and fulfillment, and frankly, competition around doing good and doing best.

Michael McNary: 00:32:01

Yeah, you know, what, giving people access to the real high, you know, high return folks, is big, right? And it's also I think, great, because if somebody is putting in that effort, Sam, to help all these folks within Pavilion, you know, they're integral to why Pavilion is great, right? In, you know, rewarding them, it seems very smart to me, but maybe it's something that's been lost and other similar scenarios.

Sam Jacobs: 00:32:29

One of the keys to our success, Mike is, frankly, the fact that we're willing to share. So what I mean by that is, again, most communities are like, Oh, we have a chapter in San Francisco, the person and everybody's a volunteer, you know, and sometimes they're even nonprofits. But of course, you know, the people that run the nonprofit are paying themselves a huge salary. But we grew very quickly, because, frankly, all of the chapter heads and all of these regions, they were getting massive checks from me, because we were giving them such a significant percentage of the dues. So just a willingness to share. Now we've restructured those deals to make it easier for us to scale, you know, so they went from getting 90% of every dollar to 50% of every dollar, but still 50% of every dollar. It's amazing. So, um, you know, anyway, I think that like, that's, again, a little wrinkle that's sort of lost on people, because sometimes you assume like, you're just gonna keep everything for yourself. And fundamental to the concept is like, hey, I want to reward people. I would love it for people to get rich, helping build the community. That's awesome.

Michael McNary: 00:33:28

Yeah, no, and I think it's truly walking the walk. You know, when it comes to that cultural altruism, it's a common thread throughout this entire conversation. And one of the more understandable and logical, you know, reasons behind why this is working, why people want to be involved in it, and why people are looking to pavilion for these things that dueling doesn't even offer yet. So there's a there's a lot going on with Pavilion, I think, I would say to anyone on the outside and inside that you guys got something that works and you're thinking about the mission in a way that makes sense to now 1000s upon 1000s of people. So how can people get involved, you know, if they want to reach you, specifically, Sam, or they want to get themselves... explore Pavilion as an option for their professional careers?

Sam Jacobs: 00:34:21

Sure. I mean, if you want to reach me, you can just email me Sam at join pavilion dot com ([email protected]), and, and then if you want to join, click, go to joinpavilion.com, upper right corner, click Apply. And depending on, you know, you'll fill out some information. And depending on how you fill that out, it'll route you to one of our three communities Executive Associate or analyst and then go from there, and we've got an enrollment team. And we're, we'll take we'll take hopefully good care of you. But if you have any questions, you can just email me.

Michael McNary: 00:34:49

Yeah, that's great. And what I can speak for directly about Sam is that he is legitimately responsive and engaged and interested, you know, in getting folks connected, and you know, just seeing relationships get built around him. And I've had the opportunity to experience that myself. And it's no bullshit. So reach out if you think there's something here that can help. And I think Sam's a good guy to direct that that inquiry towards. So finally, you know, thinking about summing it up really quickly. The Pavilion story, to me is very interesting because it speaks to how legitimate culture and I'd say, genuine business practices are important in this day and age, people aren't finding it in ways that they would probably hope to. And when you can get around like minded folks that can put all the bullshit aside, add value, you know, help people accelerate their learning curves and find answers to really tough questions, and to navigate really difficult and unique scenarios. You know, you're getting a lot of people that want to be involved in that. Right. And it grew fast, for good reason. And now, you know, you're in a spot where something that started out as one thing is a huge resource to the sales community globally. And you know, what's next? Sounds exciting, too. Right? I think you guys are on a really good track here. So check it out. Everyone in the audience. I'm very impressed by it all. And you know, appreciate Sam, you coming on the show today. And what you're doing for sales professionals across the globe, it's real. And I think there's probably a lot of people out there that are very appreciative that you started it and I'm excited to see what's next.