The Global Sales Shortage (and How to Fix It)

Intro: 00:00:00

Mimeo's Talk of the Trade, sharing marketing and sales success stories.

Michael McNaryHey everyone, Mike McNary, here with another episode of Mimeo's Talk of the Trade podcast. On this show, we share marketing and sales success stories. Our hope is that you, our audience, gets some great takeaways in skills to deploy in your everyday revenue mission. To do that, we have proven sales and marketing leaders come on and talk about what they're seeing how they overcome obstacles and how they're winning in the marketplace. The title of today's episode is: 00:00:06

The Global Sales Shortage (and How to Fix It). Let's talk about why it's so hard to hire and keep salespeople, why we need to consider a problem, and how we can fix it. For that conversation, we have Alan McGuire. Alan is the founder of Entrepreneurial Sales Institute, ESI. Alan, we're really excited to have you today.

Alan Maguire: 00:00:58

Thanks very much, Mike, great to be here.

Michael McNary: 00:01:00

For the folks in our audience who might not be familiar with you or with ESI. Why don't you tell them a little bit about your organization?

Alan Maguire: 00:01:07

Yeah, ESI is a pretty young business actually, it's only three years old. We spun it out of an incubator vehicle that we have, my co-founder Johnny Parks and I, and and it was founded really to to grapple with this problem that we recognize that somewhat hiding in plain sight, which is that there is a a shortage of talent out there for sales organizations to hire. We were intrigued by this, we spent years researching the issue and kind of built a solution around the fact that the skill of selling is is infinitely more complex today than ever was before. And there are many places to go and learn and develop and certify those skills. So, so ESI provides a learning skills development and certification platform for the skills that salespeople need to operate with a high level of performance today, and the skills that employers want their salespeople to have. We set out as a data digital learning solution, and we sell it as a SaaS platform.

Michael McNary: 00:01:59

That's awesome. Listen, as a sales leader myself, I can imagine that there's a lot of value in having a prescribed approach to how you're deploying sales training, you know, not only for individuals who are trying to improve their own skills, but organizations that are trying to, you know, improve their entire teams. And it's not that easy, right? There's a lot out there and you wonder what to go with what's going to be most effective? And, you know, furthermore, do you stick with it long term? So it sounds like you guys have figured out a key to the market, which is great. What's your favorite part about working at ESI? You know, you said it's a younger business, but it sounds like you're passionate about what you're doing and the need that you're filling. What do you like most about your day to day?

Alan Maguire: 00:02:41

Yeah, we're we're very fortunate. So we're based here in Dublin, Ireland, Mike, so so so that's the first thing that's that's hopefully bit different about us. We're learning technologists by backgrounds, Johnny and I. And so we're very passionate not just about sales, but about learning and learning in the workplace in particular, and where technology can can really make learning a different and more... a more valuable experience for individuals. And I suppose what's fabulous for us is that we can form a business in Dublin, as I say, only three years ago, and in a short space of time, and somewhat helped by the pandemic, to be fair, but in a short space of time, you know, sell internationally, have conversations like this with people all over the world. I have a client base and a partner base that that quite literally goes from Sydney to California 24/7 days a week, 365 days a year, so that that ability to reach globally, with our solution in such a short space of time and the opportunity to scale globally all the time is probably the most exciting part of what we do.

Michael McNary: 00:03:39

Yeah. I'd imagine that's got to be pretty rewarding, knowing that you're impacting salespeople across the globe. So why don't we jump into our topic for today? As I mentioned at the top, the title of our episode is the global sales shortage and how to fix it. Now, you know, the last year and a half, you mentioned the pandemic a bit in your response there things have changed for a lot of organizations. Have you seen certain companies looking to maybe migrate away from we'll call legacy learning solutions and coming to things like ESI or just trying to upgrade in general? What do you... what have you seen?

Alan Maguire: 00:04:14

Yeah, I think I think there's a couple of things going on, in terms of this, the learning solutions that companies choose but perhaps the most and where the pandemic really accelerated accelerated something that was happening anyway, is the evolution of of sales skills generally. And the fact that selling today when we take a longitudinal view, which is over decades, selling today is an infinitely more sophisticated and complex skill set than it ever was before. And I certainly am not going to put you in the same bracket, Mike, as as, as me age wise, but I, you know, I can go back firing off when when you know, sales was was actually since time immemorial, sales has been regarded as a pretty crude and unsophisticated skill set. It's it's never really been regarded as a profession. It's never really been given the credit it deserves. In terms of how valuable it is to your organization, and as a result, it turned into a kind of a job that people ended up doing when they couldn't do anything else, as opposed to an aspirational profession that people would want to do and pursue a career. And I think there's loads of reasons for that. But in the last 40 years, the skill of selling has become ever more complicated, but buyers have become more professional. And the arrival of digitalization has made buyers ever more demanding, have a better experience with salespeople. And so I think there was an evolution that was happening anyway, pre pandemic, which, which was about a recognition by employers, and indeed, by practitioners that, you know, wow, this is a pretty sophisticated complex skill set that I have, or that I need to have to operate at a level of high performance consistently. And it's time to give some recognition and validation for that. And, and when we looked at the marketplace, we felt that was, that was actually an anchor calls for this global shortage of talents, which is quite proven. But also, there weren't many places one could go to develop those skills. And in fact, one of the reasons for that is that the skills we're talking about, which are kind of higher order cognitive skills, they're not easily developed in a linear course. That they need to be developed over time and on the job. And we feel that digital learning is, is is the best medium to do that. And that was how you build the product that we did. So I think I think there's still loads of room for offline training and virtual classroom based training. And, and courses in the traditional sense of the word. And but I think now there's extra demand on the part of employers for maybe slightly more innovative or disruptive digital solutions to go with that.

Michael McNary: 00:06:35

Interesting. Yeah, I really like what you said there about, you know, sales, training and learning being nonlinear. I couldn't agree more, you think about how many different scenarios that a salesperson is going to have to navigate, you know, whether it's objection handling, or discovery, you know, every situation is different. And there's so many things that you just don't know, how you're going to navigate the situation until you see it. Right. And it's really that, you know, whether it's making the calls, getting in front of customers, or doing what I've always thought is an effective part of training, you know, a component not not the whole thing, of course, is role plays, right? Because it gives you the opportunity to put yourself in the shoes of a hypothetically real situation. And you can kind of bounce around, and it has that nonlinear component.

Alan Maguire: 00:07:20

Yeah, so much of it as well is based upon what the salesperson needs at a particular point in time. And that isn't just... that isn't just about their own skill development or career development. I mean, you can only develop so many... kind of this instructional science about the fact you can only develop so many skills a particular point in time. But a huge amount of what drives the sales person's needs is where their book of businesses a particular time, you know, sometimes you're knocking out of the park and you've got a bunch of deals to close right now. But you're struggling at the top of the funnel. Sometimes you're struggling to get some deals out of a logjam. Sometimes it's all about closing, sometimes it's dealing with the C suite and presenting to them. And, and that requires different skills at different times. And the salesperson sometimes needs to tap into what they need when they need it. And again, the beauty about digital modalities, generally, and what hopefully we designed, is that it gives people that entirely self-paced, just-in-time...you know, we talk about learning at lunchtime and applying in the afternoon. You learn what you need to learn, when you need to learn, and you apply it in real time to improve your performance. Digital allows allows one to do that.

Michael McNary: 00:08:24

Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. And I, you know, the first thing that comes to mind is, man, I wish it was just easier, right? Why couldn't it just be the same all the time, and you could develop some scalable approach and, you know, deploy it every day, you know, as an individual or as a team. But you're right. You know, sometimes you need to weigh your efforts and your skills more heavily in one area versus another depending on what's happening in your particular market or the broader market. Right. So that's big and reps who can't do that, or whether it's closers are even towards the top of the funnel if they can't pivot, tight, and, you know, be nimble to address what is needed at that time. That's that's a hole in their skill set that's going to affect them, you know, their attainment, their professional development and their earnings. Right. So this is real.

Alan Maguire: 00:09:13

Yeah, it really is. And, and the thing that that even what you've described there, and that ability to think in real time and adopted in real time for the circumstances that you're dealing with, and the buyer that you're dealing with, because not every buyer is going to be the same. And that in and of itself is a really sophisticated skill. And you know, some might argue that's a skill that salespeople always needed to have. But it's at a premium now. I think there were times in the past to your points that you could be more formulaic, you could be a bit more of say a playbook or process-driven salesperson. But these days, buyers are different and they're more sophisticated or better informed. They demand a demand a salesperson who can think on their feet like you're describing there, and that in and of itself is a really sophisticated set of skills.

Michael McNary: 00:09:57

No, I think you're right on and on. You see it more and more especially on, you know, on the enterprise side and think about just alone, the amount of decision makers that, you know, certain sales have involved in that vendor review or partner review, and, you know, salespersons navigating many different stakeholders, nuanced organizational structure, as well as you know, trying to meet needs in features and, you know, outline the benefits of those features to get a sale. Right. So, it's, there's a lot to it. And I think, you know, what you're describing here is something that addresses the realities of, you know, being a modern salesperson versus hey, what we'd all like it to be right. So good, good on you there. Let me ask you this. Right. So so, you know, what I'm hearing is that, you know, there's a sales shortage, right. And, you know, a root cause, I think, historically has been maybe people's viewpoint on sales as a career. Let's talk about that for a second. What do you think the viewpoint on sales as a career has been relative to maybe the more mainstream or we'll call them, you know, recognize success stories, like, you know, someone becoming a doctor or an attorney or, you know, another stereotypically "sound" profession for someone to go into, you know, how are they different?

Alan Maguire: 00:11:18

Yeah, fascinating, I ran a webinar with one of our partners a few months ago, and it was for board level directors. So it was for it was for the directors of organizations. And I run a quick q&a beforehand, a bit of an icebreaker where I asked them - and this your very point, Mike, these would be, these would be lawyers, they'd be doctors, or lawyers and accountants and, and, you know, HR and talent professionals. And I'll come back to that point in a second - but I asked them all about how important sales was in the organization on a scale of one to five and in the chat comes through five, five, five, ten, most important, most important, and then I said to them, okay, so that's fabulous. So we know, what's the most important function of the business. How many of you wanted to be professional salesperson? And none of them were. None of them were. None of them ever wanted to be. I asked how many of them would encourage their children to take up sales as a profession. And the answer was a kind of a resounding kind of Tumbleweed deathly silence. And, and there is this global dichotomy between the fact that it's the most important gig, it's the most high pressure, and we value it to that extent, but we're not prepared to kind of give it the respect it deserves in terms of being a highly skilled profession that deserves the same treatment and recognition that any other business profession does. And I link that back to what why are we all these, these, these lawyers and accountants, etc, because you can get a business degree in pretty much every business discipline that you need either postgraduate or undergraduate. And yet, there's no degrees, but there's very few degrees out there in sales. So from the get go, there is the sense that, you know, we're going to ...we have this really important function, we don't value it enough to have any kind of third level, you know, traditional business education in it. And so therefore, who's going to be attracted to do this really important job in the organization? On that, by the way, how do we treat them when we do get them? Well, we give them 90 days to perform, or we're going to shoot them. And there's no other function, there's no other function of the business, there's no other function in the business that you would give them 90 days before you shoot them out of the organization. And, and, and it's just just this this complete, complete kind of disconnect between the fact that it's the most important function, employers are beginning to recognize as the most highly skilled, they can't get people with the right skills, and yet they don't invest anything to develop those skills. And what does that tell you about the perception of of the role in the business and how much organizations are prepared to, to invest in them? So there's, there's there's a lot wrong with that picture over the last 10, 20, 30 years...Well, as I say, I do believe, right, we see evidence of that changing now. And we'll talk...

Michael McNary: 00:13:47

Well, which is good. And I think everything that you just said is right on, and I can't, you know, one, think of that many people that I've worked with or know or networked with that, you know, grew up and said, you know, what, one day what I want to be is a sales leader, or I want to be an account executive that closes sales transactions and navigates complex sales processes, right? It's just not on the radar of so many people. But to your point, what we ask of people that are all of a sudden thrown into the deep end when it comes to sales, right, maybe they realize at some point, it's something they want to pursue, or it's an avenue they get led down for another reason, and they're giving it their all but you know, they've had no prep in terms of, you know, education or structuralist training on the topic or on the skill set. And you know, what, it also makes it pretty astounding how many people are able to, you know, really have great things come out of them and drive success and improvement from their themselves without this structured, you know, way to get there or path to become competent. So many folks have have to kind of figure it out. And you see people all the time making it happen. And I just think about how many success stories I look at and say, wow, you know, that is very impressive that this or that person was able to do what they've done. Right. So I think what you're saying really resonates with me, and I hope it does with our audience. You mentioned a little bit about the emergence of sales and marketing automation, how things have become, I think, more complex versus less. So talk to me a little bit about that, and how that's impacting, you know, how you approach, you know, the work you do at ESI? And how sales leaders out there should think about the problem.

Alan Maguire: 00:15:40

Yeah, I did... This, this for us was absolutely fascinating, as we researched this, this this issue, and again, to reassure all your listeners, Mike, that this is a global problem. So it's cold comfort for people out there struggling to attract and retain sales talent, but it's real, and it's global. So you're not alone. And we found something fascinating around the emergence... if you go back to the naughties and the emergence of you know, sales, technology stacks and marketing automation and lead nurturing technologies. And we'll probably all know, the top vendors, and that's based on and there's there's dozens of them. And I think have massive value for what they have done to to to streamline and automate the more mundane parts of the sales process, you know, and I think the value that those technology stacks bring to salespeople, I only wish they were there when I was starting out. But one of the curious narratives that evolved with time was this perception that all this technology would effectively make salespeople redundant, you know, that did...

Michael McNary: 00:16:36

Right

Alan Maguire: 00:16:37

I mean, we've written blog posts about other blog posts that talked about "I'll never hire another salesperson" and "who needs those pesky sales guys", and "thank God the end of the salespeople"...I mean genuinely Death of a Salesman narrative in the world. And I think that what that did was it setback, sales development, it set back the career that we just...the career perception we just talked about, because hey, these guys won't be around in 10 years anyway. And what it also set back investment in solutions to develop a resource that you felt you were going to need anymore, so there was kind of a double whammy there.

Michael McNary: 00:17:07

Yeah

Alan Maguire: 00:17:07

Actually, the way it played out is that all this wonderful technology did did a number of things that couldn't have been more opposite than making the salesperson redundant. What it did, or what it does, this technology, is automate the more prosaic parts of sales. What that means is that the human being part of the sales process is the more complicated, but it's the bit that the human brain can only do and what that means is you have an even higher premium on the skills a salesperson needs to have. Your buyers are coming more informed, your buyers are coming, certainly, well informed about your products. So there's no need to spend all your sales or all your sales training dollars on just telling people about product. The buyer kind of knows a lot about the products are out there, but it's not your coming here. So all of a sudden the engagement that they expect, and the skills that salesperson needs to deploy, not only are they not redundant, they're even more complex and sophisticated than they were when technology had that really strange, strange kind of kind of result, which was was far from removing the human element of sales, it actually enhanced and appreciated, appreciated the human element of sales to a higher order skill set level. And as a result, sales people not only are not redundant, but they need to be more skilled today than than they were before. And I think because the industry didn't necessarily legislate for that, that probably they'll probably put everybody back further and in terms of this talent and skills deficit globally, which is what we're dealing with. That's the problem we're dealing with.

Michael McNary: 00:18:30

Interesting. Yeah, it's one of those law of unintended circumstances, right, or unintended consequences, rather, and you think that you're gonna, you're gonna make everything easier and simplify. And this is, you know, this is easy, we figured it out, right? All of a sudden, you're not going to need to hire for this function anymore. And look what we've got for you try it out. But you're right, the reality is, removing salesperson from a modern sales cycle is very unlikely, because it's become more and more reliant on a competent individual to navigate, you know, complexities, but also the educated level that the buyers are coming to the sale with, right?

Alan Maguire: 00:19:13

Yeah.

Michael McNary: 00:19:14

The information they can drive on their own, you have to really concentrate and address such a multifaceted, you know, we'll call it a set of, you know, needs, questions, you know, requirements, as well as, you know, convince a lot of folks that you are the differentiator amongst, you know, maybe a competitive landscape. So, there's a lot there. And, you know, I can also remember, you know, seeing a lot of that too, right, you know, who needs humans for sales, right? This AI or this automation tool, and, you know, I don't think I was ever really worried but it does make you take a step back. If you are a salesperson, right, then you know, no, one day I'm going to be... it's gonna be a robot doing my job right or some algorithm.

Alan Maguire: 00:19:58

Yeah, big time and I... They didn't I mean, not not, there was a there was much of a momentum towards kind of, you know, raising the profile of sales as this aspirational career anyway, but it certainly wasn't going to target getting loads of parents, you know, mums and dads throughout the land saying, you know, to Little Johnny or Jane, look, let's start thinking of being a salesperson when the whole profession is going to be eradicated in the next 10 years. So that didn't help. But I suppose all of these different vignettes are all part of them, all part of the root cause for us anyway, in our thesis, the root cause of this, of this talent shortage globally, you know, which, which, which dwarfs the talent shortage in any other discipline in business, Or in fact, in in other domains.

Michael McNary: 00:20:39

Yep. Yeah, I think even in the best of times, you know, as a sales leader, I can say that, I've always wished that there was more, right, more folks that fit the bill, that had the relevant experience, and or, you know, training or certification that we're talking about today, to take on a position that might be within my organization, talk to other people that are facing the same challenges. And now it's just become, you know, like you just said, for so many different reasons, right? It's a multifaceted problem, that, you know, it's probably going to be a difficult one to solve in one fell swoop. But it sounds like, you know, you guys are taking a serious approach that has real impact on getting folks ready to be effective in this profession, which is great. So, you know, let's talk about, you know, we're talking about the sales shortage, what's led to it. And you know, where we're at today, and how automation has kind of played a role... Is the impact of some of these things greater in certain specialties, for instance, you know, do we see that the market is more lean, and difficult to hire for, say, sales development top of funnel stuff? Or is it closers? Is it experienced sales leadership? Or is it pretty universal across the board? What's your take on that?

Alan Maguire: 00:22:00

Yeah. So that's like that. That's really fascinating. Because I think then you get into this, this notion of this articulation of well, what do we mean by sales, in the first instance? And where does sales begin and part of marketing begin? And we certainly, we certainly see that the broad skill set as being a, from want of a better phrase, a commercial skill set. And you know, in the industry, there's a lot of talk about transversal skills and the relevance of these skills throughout the business domain. So they're not just uniquely... uniquely defined for salespeople. But I think to your point, it's incumbent upon all organizations to really work out whatever label, whatever title you might put on something, whether it's SDR or BDD, or strategic sales, or solution sales or customer success, whatever it might be. The really kind of key thing for your organization to understand is what are the underlying skills that I need this person to have to perform this role to the best of their ability, and their... those skills are going to be subtly different depending on where, where you are on the funnel. And there's no doubt at the top of the funnel... I think the colors and the lines are more blurred between whether is the individual really selling or are they are they paving the way for somebody else to sell ,but in a way that's that's an academic debate that people can have over a beer or a glass of wine, I think the more important thing is for each role in the organization, whatever title you're going to put, whether it's sales or anything else, what are the underlying skills that you as an organization, believe the individual needs to have? And this is where we see a sea change. We have been designing our curriculum, we analyze job specs from organizations all over the world. And we were really astonished at how - and this is a good thing, by the way - at how how organizations, how complex and sophisticated the skills organizations want their salespeople to have almost whatever the role is. So that's that, for us is great, because organizations recognize the need the skill set. So once you've done that, that's key. And then the question is, what are you finding people with those with those skills? And if you are, well done, you're probably ahead of the game. If you're not, you know, what are you going to do there? And how do you respond to that? Because...because firing them after 90 days, and going back to the same limited talent pool probably isn't the right way for a solution for it. So what do you do there? But I think to your point, there's different skills required at different roles, commercial roles, wherever they are in the sales funnel, and even post sales and customer success account management. And the organizations really need to start there and work out what are those skills? And in what roles are which skills the most relevant and appropriate.

Michael McNary: 00:24:28

Right. Yeah, and thinking as you're talking about, about it, the job descriptions that you see so often, right, when a job is posted for applications, and you know, sometimes I read through and think to myself, well, they're looking for a pretty accomplished sales professional here right? You know, the number of years of experience, right, you know, a particular specialization in an industry or persona and beyond that they want, you know, you to be you know, having some of the more we'll call them "fringe abilities" right. And it tends to be a description with a ton of bullets, and can be probably pretty daunting, especially if you think about folks that are new to sales, right, and don't have that maybe track record of success just yet. You know, they think to themselves, wow, I mean, I'm not even close to this, which may have an adverse effect when it comes to recruiting right?

Alan Maguire: 00:25:25

Completely. And I think that's the thing that you think about the fact that you've got this perception, anyway, that you look at these job specs with these evermore complicated a, by the way, they're right, the employers are right, these are the skills that the that you do need to have. But are you really going to find somebody in all those skills? Are you turning people away? And are you making any commitment to develop those individuals and they come in? One of the things that I am going back to the point about these being transversal skills, one of the things that we are seeing in our client base is that, again, this is a sea change in thinking around this kind of hire-fire culture versus no, no, this is talent, that skilled and highly skilled. And this is a career progression in the business, this this is a portal into the business world into other sales roles or whatever. One of the big solutions for this talent shortage is actually recruiting from within, from from either either more junior entry level sales roles, or from other functions in the business and raising the profile of sales as a as an aspiration right here in business. And then one of the key things that we're seeing our customers doing is a lot of use cases for us. Yes, they're about developing skills for the job the individuals in today, but because they're taking a longer term view about where that individual is going to end up in the business in the future, and they're also developing skills for the future. And that could be in sales or sales leadership, or perhaps in other business functions in the business. And that is that, again, is a key thing that an organization to do is look at this from a kind of a longer term strategic perspective, because your entry level salespeople today at that top of the funnel, where maybe your thinking is not as skilled a role as, as the Senior Account Executive down the road. Well, the people are hiring today might be those senior executives down the road, how do you begin to embed those skills in their development and development right now? And how do you build? How do you build your talent pipeline from within as much as from without?

Michael McNary: 00:27:13

Alright, if the ideal, as we think agreed, is the ideal to bring folks from your organization into the open positions as they arise, right, hire internally, hire up internally, what are some keys to keeping them on board and making sure that they are available to take on that next responsibility?

Alan MaguireYeah, I think there's so there's a couple of things - and by the way, we shouldn't veer away from the fact that at the end of the day, your sales team needs to perform, and they need to deliver a quota every month. So that that reality doesn't go through any of this. But I think I think that today's employment- employee - wants a multifaceted employment experience, and it is not all about money, even in sales, it's not all about money. And I think you've got to keep an eye on giving people the opportunity to develop. Certainly in the pandemic world now you've got to have flexibility in terms of their, you know, that the work logistics around them. But I think a huge part of this is career development and, and offering them a path into something that they can move into in the future, whether that is within or without the sales or sales management or sales leadership. I mean, in the past, again, I'm going back and hopefully there aren't that many organizations still doing this. But really, it was pretty, it was pretty much a three way fork in the road: 00:27:34

if you went into sales, if you if you ended up there, rather than choosing to go there, you know, you either got fired, you move the open to a more senior sales role, even in sales management. And that was kind of it. And the organization never really opened up the possibility of you moving elsewhere. And I think the beauty about about this, this redefinition of the skills required and this notion of transversal skills is that you learn how coachable people are, which is a huge factor in terms of talent management and talent strategy. And not only are people learning but are they, you know, how are they responding to learning? And is their, is their performance or their behaviors changing in response to learning? I think that tells you a lot and teaches you a lot about them and give them the opportunity develop and see well, what opportunities, what, where could they land in an organization and how might they and how might they add value and other functions? And I think offering visibility of that and offering a path for that sometimes is as important as hard cash or money and all the incentives that go without. I think it's a much more complex employer employee relationship right now. And I think I think if you can, if you can offer that kind of pathway in that vision for recognition of skills development and coaching I think you capture hearts and minds of people a lot.. an awful lot quicker than than than perhaps people did in the past.

Michael McNary: 00:29:49

Yeah. I can tell you that. I'm personally, I can think of number of instances in say the last two to five years where folks within the org have had a lot more interest in the idea of getting a training opportunity, right, or having some sort of budget allocated to their professional development through a third party resource or, you know, certification. And I think I'm definitely seeing that. And what you just said is, you know, clearly a reality right now, you know, when in the past, you know, it was less nuanced, right? I think, you know, money or like you said, something spiff oriented, what were the levers that you could pull to really incent sales folks, especially the younger ones, but they're hungry for development. And I think it has to do that vacuum you talked about, but also some of the characteristics of this newest generation.

Alan Maguire: 00:30:43

I was a real Luddite in this one, and I, you know, mea culpa - I, it took me a long time, it took me a long time to come onto this. But when we're hiring I ...Going back a few years now, I was struck, how often in the interview process recruitment process, candidate would say, you know, ask them about, well, you know, what do you want? Or what are you looking for? And they'd say, I want to learn, I want to learn, I want to, I want to learn, I want to learn, and I would have been old enough, too old, and I probably would have reacted thinking, Well, no, no, you're not coming here to learn, you're coming here to perform and to come in and do a job, etc. And it's taken me all this time to realize no, actually, that, you know, employees today, and candidates today, have an insatiable desire to learn. It's never over, they have never stopped learning, they've never stopped wanting to learn. And that's a really good thing. That's a really good thing for organization, but you do have to embrace it. And as I say, I'll take full responsibility for being kind of the snail in that particular race. Finally picking up on that after after the 100th interview, Mike, you know, finally, I got it.

Michael McNary: 00:31:44

Yeah, old habits, Alan, old habits die hard. Yeah. And I know what you mean, I can think of other similar examples in my career, for sure. But you know, you're right. I hear it more myself. And, you know, even if you listen to what people are, you know, publishing about themselves and their organizations that this is something that people are excited about. Right. And it does have that ROI for the organization. Right, and the leadership too. So it's very forward thinking and something that people need to get on. For sure. So, you know, there's a sales shortage, there probably always has been to some degree, just worse now. Right? There are ways to address this multifaceted problem, right, that has legacy influences. And we've talked a little bit about them today. Right. And that development component is really big part, as well, as, you know, making sure that you are thinking long term, right. And, you know, giving your folks the opportunity to grow in the way that you need to and build your own talent base. What are some things? You know, these are kind of big picture, right? What are some things that maybe sales leaders can do at the, you know, day to day or the the weekly level that can influence this for themselves in their organizations? You know, what can they do tomorrow?

Alan Maguire: 00:33:09

Yeah, yeah. And that's not an easy one. And I think it is, it's a bigger picture issue. But I think, I think one of the first things here is kind of diagnosis of the problem. So, so we're, we will reduce the discussion, typically, to a kind of a skills based discussion. But moving away from that, if we think about what, what is the organizational issue here? Is it is it turnover, for example, because the numbers are staggering? it's something turnover in sales versus other functions, for lots of reasons we talked about is something like three times 3x, what are these other functions in the business? So you've got to ask, Is that my reality? Is that my problem? And and if it is, then well, what's the diagnosis for that? What's causing that particular problem? And but sometimes it's not turnover, sometimes it's growth in the business, you're going through an exponential growth period, you've got to get talented, get fast. And is it all about bringing new people into the organization? And how am I hooked up difficult and work difficulties? And we're finding around that sometimes it's it's internal mobility, career mobility within within the organization, and, and I've loads of people who are interested, but I'm not they're not making the transition? I can't enable that. So I think, I think the first thing, you know, as I say, if we can all recognize there is a global challenge here. So that's not going to be fixed overnight. But at the individual organizational level, on a line management level...Exactly what is your problem here? Get get under the skin of this... not just oh, I've got a problem hiring retaining salespeople, right. Your specific problem is, is it bringing people in? Is it is it turnover? Is it people leaving? What... Why is that is it is it migrating people from internally in the organization? If you can diagnose that and the cause of that, then I think you're able to start sourcing the kinds of solutions that you might be able to resolve for that. And the only other thing that we see our customers doing all the time particularly on the on the sales talent shortage side is... And because the open market is so challenging, and even though we want to be a big part of the supply side solution here, and over years, the I think one of the things that organizations are definitely doing is putting in place a really robust path for colleagues in other functions of the organization to go into sales. And that involves, again, making it slightly more attractive and less fearful for people to make that move, leveraging the corporate memory that you have sometimes about your products, or your technology, or the industry in which you sell... there's a huge amount of knowledge in the organization, that is the basis for a brilliant salesperson. And so look at the challenge you might already have and see could it might be easier to backfill that times, if you're going to track some of the talent you have into sales. But if you're going to do that, you really have to de-risk that move in that path for them and make it something that, that you're going to harness the talent the skills you have. But make it make it in the same way, if you're tracking somebody into finance, or HR or marketing or, or product development, you would invest in them, you would give them a shot at a development through a career in that function. Do the same for sales just, just give it parity of esteem and equality. And I think looking internally could be the quickest fix we could, we certainly see our customers doing it, it could be the quickest fix we could recommend, once you've diagnosed the problem that you have.

Michael McNary: 00:36:22

Yeah, I think that's really great. And I think that's a good takeaway for the audience there. You know, think think about your problem, specifically, right? We talked about, you know, just, you know, the whys of, you know, sales not being looked at as desirable or, you know, legitimate path to go down for first buying professionals. But think about that, right? You know, folks in organizations see salespeople being successful, they see people potentially happy, you know, in the role that they're doing, yet, there is still apprehension, and that you have to cut through, because it's been ingrained. And then that sales is one thing or another that may not align with, you know, what they're looking for, right?

Alan Maguire: 00:37:03

I couldn't agree more on this. This is this is a tiny example. But this is potentially how acute The problem is, in terms of perception. I spoke to a business last week. And they were... they were doing exactly what we talked about, they were bringing an existing resource and putting them into a sales role, I'm going to call it a sales role, because that's the word that springs to mind. And what fascinated me, Mike, to the very point you just made, that individual was really keen, really, really excited about the opportunity, really excited about the job, but they would not accept the word sales in the job title. So they really, I can't remember what title they ended up with. But but they did not want sales in the job title. I mean, that for me is is is a... Well, the good news is it's an easy fix for organizations, if that's all you have to do, and what title you give people doesn't matter once. But what a sad commentary on the perception of sales as a profession, that that's somebody who's excited about a role is looking at it black and white knows, knows what's involved, knows the skills they need to develop to do to deliver, they just don't want in their title. Thanks very much. That's that's, that's horrifying to hear. But, again, that hopefully is... it's hopefully a potential fix for organizations, you can think laterally about this. And, you know, what's the underlying performance metrics are the same? And what's the skills required are appropriate for the role? Really what labor you're putting, it doesn't really matter.

Michael McNary: 00:38:22

Yeah, I think that's incredibly interesting right there, that somebody you know, wants to role, every box they're probably looking for is checked. But the idea that they'd be a, say, a, quote, unquote, sales person, you know, something that they went so far as to say, I need this to be changed, if I'm going to, if I'm going to move forward, which now says a lot, right? It's one one scenario, right, of course, you know, it's a standalone example. But, you know, I suspect that there's other others like it happening, and again, is a byproduct of this whole question of, you know, why is there a sale shortage? What to be done about it? And I think, Alan, you know, I've really enjoyed this conversation and your thoughts on this. And you know, how you and ESI are trying to help companies tackle the problem. It just, in my opinion, awesome work. So I want to thank you, again, for coming on the show and sharing all these great ideas. I think, you know, if I was to summarize for the audience and just organizing our thoughts here, there is a sales shortage globally, right. It has deep roots. And because the market is changing, there have been unintended consequences that have maybe made the problem even larger in some cases, but there's hope, right, we need to change how we do things in certain cases. Specifically, we need to think about how we're developing new and legacy employees and team members, right. Ensure that the talent base is something that we are impacting as much as we can, right, when given the opportunity. And then, you know, think creatively and specifically about your problem, right? You know, how is your org unique or different to others that are experiencing the same obstacles and be very, you know, we'll call it, you know, surgical about how you approach it and make sure that you're solving a specific to, you know, your day to day and where you want to go in the future. So just awesome stuff here. And, Alan, I want to make sure that we give the audience an opportunity to reach out to you and to ESI. If they want to discuss this further, if one of our audience members wanted to touch me, how would they do so?

Alan Maguire: 00:40:43

First of all, Mike, thanks so much for having us. It's been a pleasure, love the conversation as well. And love to do it again, sometime. It's plenty more where this came from. And yeah, we appreciate it. So we're the Entrepreneurial Sales Institute, ESI, you'll find us at ESinstitute.com. You'll find me at [email protected]. That's Maguire, m-a-g-u-i-r-e. And of course, you'll get me on LinkedIn anytime as well. I'm Alan Maguire. And I'd love to hear from any listeners, or anybody who hears this podcast, and we'd love your views. We really are passionate about this stuff. And we'd love to hear what you think about what you heard today or what our mission generally so. So love being part of the conversation wherever in the world that might be thanks for having us.

Michael McNary: 00:41:24

Of course, yes. And to our listeners, I've had a chance now to speak down about this, beyond even just this, you know, this particular episode, and I can tell you that he's he's on to something, he has a very good handle this problem, I encourage you to reach out in leverage his skill set and ESI's if you're trying to navigate some of these obstacles we've discussed today. So again, thank you, Alan. That concludes our show for today. But Mimeo's Talk of the Trade podcast will be back next month. We have some great guests lined up in the you know, we'll call it the remainder of fall and into winter. And please make sure that you're subscribing and following to the pod wherever you get your content. And if you have feedback, leave it. We'd love to hear what you're thinking. feedback so far has been greatly appreciated, and it helps us get better. And that's what we're looking to do make this useful and valuable to our audience. So, again, thanks everyone for joining in, Alan. I hope to do this again sometime soon to have a great day.