How to Stay Agile With Sales Compensation

Switch to agile sales compensation with plans that are clear, measurable, and easy to update. We find out how with Erik Charles from Xactly Corporation. Transcript[00:01] Michael McNary: Welcome to Mimeo’s talk of the trade. I’m Mike McNary. In addition to leading a sales organization here at Mimeo, I’m also interested in unlocking the secrets […]

Switch to agile sales compensation with plans that are clear, measurable, and easy to update. We find out how with Erik Charles from Xactly Corporation.

Transcript

[00:01] Michael McNary: Welcome to Mimeo's talk of the trade. I'm Mike McNary. In addition to leading a sales organization here at Mimeo, I'm also interested in unlocking the secrets of sales and marketing. In each episode, I talk with creative leaders to find out how they approach problems like motivating sales teams, structuring the revenue cycle, and fitting product to market. At the end of the conversation, you and I have new takeaways to apply to our everyday life. Let's jump into today's episode.

[00:28] Michael McNary: Hi, everyone. Mike McNary here, welcoming you to another episode of Mimeo's Talk of the Trade podcast. Today's episode is titled How to Stay Agile with Sales Compensation. For our show, I'm pretty pumped about our guest: We've got Eric Charles. Eric is the vice president business operations Japan for the Xactly Corporation. It's great to have you, Eric. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:53] Erik Charles: Thank you very much for inviting me. Appreciate it.

[00:56] Michael McNary: We're excited to have someone with your expertise on the show. Why don't we talk a little bit about that expertise and your background to start, many of our listeners are likely familiar with Xactly have maybe used incentives at one point or another. But for those that haven't, tell us a little bit about Xactly in your organization's mission.

[01:15] Erik Charles: So Xactly was founded like 17 and a half years ago. When it was founded, we were actually the first player to take the world of automating sales compensation into the cloud. The idea was and always has been, to make it possible to manage what is really behind the scenes, an extremely complex and onerous process of sales compensation. And really, people always like, Hold it. How hard is it? I make 5% on a deal and an extra kick or 2% off a quota. I'm like, yeah, but are you the only person who gets paid? I mean, if we roll into the data, there's like 20-30 people on average getting paid on a single deal. By the time you look at all the shared credit, split credit and roll ups to management, it's a nightmare. And that's assuming you figure out who should get paid on a deal. Second only to complaining that you cheated me out of some of my commission is you cheated me out of credit on working on a deal. Don't you remember? I was on that, not Mike wasn't on that deal. That was my territory at the time. So it gets a lot of fun. So the company got into this to start automating all these systems. A lot of it was driven by the growth of, once again, SaaS-based CRM systems, like, of course, Salesforce. And then each round of it trying to take the lessons a lot of people learned, myself included, from prior companies and make it work a lot better.

[02:40] Michael McNary: And it does. Listen, as an Xactly user, I can say that before it was implemented at Mimeo sales. Comp was an entirely different day to day task so much of it is streamlined and as you said, automated. And also the visibility is huge for sales leadership. And also, like you said, the individual stakeholders who are wanting to know what are they being paid, where is it coming from, what deal, what percentage, and all that's pretty evident if you're using the tools. So I think you guys have accomplished a lot of that mission, I'm sure. Still iterating and innovating, but you're doing a pretty good job. So how did you end up Xactly?

[03:18] Erik Charles: I got started right out of university and ended up in management consulting, and I was working on sales compensation projects. And so I would build out massive spreadsheets for my clients to prove how it should be done. And I still remember one of my clients at one point saying, could we please have your spreadsheet model? We're going to use it to run comp here. And I'm really dating myself here. I said, sure, and I Federal Express them a stack of discettes, not even burned on CD. I then get this call and they said, oh, this requires a newer version of Excel. Can you buy us a copy of Excel and expense it to us because our It budget won't let us buy more software?

[03:59] Michael McNary: Right.

[03:59] Erik Charles: So I did that. Then I ended up working in house at one of my customers, Sun. They hired me to come in and manage comp for one of their divisions. That was the late 90s. So then I started doing a lot of startups. Then I went into academia for a while, and then Chris Cabrera, the founder of Xactly, we got together for drinks one day and he said, why don't you take a look at what I'm working on? And showed me some of the work Xactly was doing. I got very excited. And then from there, I've been with the company off and on for 11-12 years now. And last year we realized that Japan would be a fantastic market. We had had some interest from Japanese companies in the past. I volunteered to come over here to Tokyo and help hire up a local team and get them going. And we've already got our first customers up and going and slowly expanding here in Tokyo, making the Xactly family continue to be global.

[04:48] Michael McNary: That's awesome. Let's talk about sales comp. You talked about some of the research that you've done, this expertise that you have, the track record of working in and around sales compensation now for decades, it sounds like. And I'd imagine that makes you pretty informed, but also opinionated on what's to come in the path ahead for sales organizations, especially those that want to be leading edge. So why don't we talk about the status quo? Think about the average sales comp plan at a mid size sales team in North America. If you're looking at it from your perspective, what works and what doesn't work with the current status quo,

[05:32] Erik Charles: It’s a nightmare and it's Frankenstein's monster. In that they have an arm from Finance and a leg from Sales Ops, and another arm is brought in from Human Resources and they have assembled this body where everybody's voice has been heard and design of the comp plan. And by the time you're done, it has so many moving parts. And don't get me wrong, having too many moving parts, obviously justifies the existence of enterprise grade software. What I see is if I walked up to one of your sales reps, I said, hey, what's the top deal in your pipeline? I said this client cool. How much will you make if you close it tomorrow? And if they can't answer that question, you've got a problem, you're wasting money. This is one of the issues people don't realize that line of sight is a couple of different things it's usually used to. Do I know how my actions will impact my pay, but there's also that, do I know how much I'll make? I had a very good friend of mine who worked for one of the big global tech companies. We were talking about plans. I said, So how do you do? He's like, well, we're only paid quarterly because of the system and it takes them six weeks after the end of the quarter to actually cut me a check. Wow, that's just ridiculous. He's like, oh yeah. He's like, So I can do business in January and not get paid until the May 15 pay run. And I asked him, do you know about what you'll make each quarter? He said. Not a chance. I said, alright, so you got your personal spreadsheet. I knew this guy. He said, yes. Does it match the companies? No. How does that make you feel? Honestly, they pay me so much I'm just going to keep going. So in a way, he's the voice of the problem. I also point out he was making so much he really didn't care at that point. He figured it was all just caught up in the noise. But I can imagine you've got a listener right now, say on the financial auditing side of things going, what? Hold it. How much money are we pumping into this for an individual rep or something? What's our line item for all of this? And why did it happen this way? And I think that's a big part of the problem.

[07:45] Michael McNary: I'd say there's something to that, right? Not being able to draw, if this happens, then I get this conclusion, is something that can definitely inhibit the motivation that comes from sales comp, right? You don't know exactly quantitatively what you're going to bring home. If an outcome occurs, then it's hard to get as jazzed or as motivated towards that outcome if it's less clear.

[08:12] Erik Charles: I was sitting with one of my sales reps last night at the office and we were working on a proposal for a company and working on the pricing. And I just said, well, it let's whiteboard this, and let's talk about bluntly how you can maximize your commission on this.

[08:30] Michael McNary: Nice.

[08:31] Erik Charles: And her eyes grew wide. She said, Hold it. You're not my sales manager. You're running operations for Japan, and you're helping me make more money. I'm like, Absolutely, because everything in this plan benefits the company.

[08:45] Michael McNary: Totally.

[08:45] Erik Charles: And I looked at her, which, by the way, rolls into my bonus plan. Yeah, we're all on the same side here. If you make more money, I make more money. Because the company is doing better, because our plan is built to hit the goals of the company, but it's also blatantly built to drive the exact behaviors we want from our sales team to pursue.

[09:06] Michael McNary: And if they don't know what those behaviors are going to lead to, it's hard to actually drive the behaviors. Yeah.

[09:11] Erik Charles: And we could do it on the whiteboard. That's the whole thing. She could do it in the product, but she hadn't even put a quote into salesforce yet, which is usually where you can play with it and Xactly. We can whiteboard this, and that's another thing. We can whiteboard it because our comp plan, although it encompasses critical goals, is clear enough I don't want to say simple enough, but clear enough that you can whiteboard out a single deal and see how much money you'd make and pull up the percentages.

[09:41] Michael McNary: Yeah. The point you made a moment ago, which I'd say I think my organization has and I think a lot strive for, which is alignment. Right. What benefits the rep benefits the organization. I'd imagine that the most broken don't even have that.

[09:54] Erik Charles: Yeah. I mean, a lot of companies, again, depends on who our first entry into a prospective client is. When we say, great, who here on the buying committee represents actually sales? Like, why would they be in here? I'm like, well, they're going to see the results. They never see how the sausage is made. I'm like, they should. They should know exactly how it's made. This takes me back to early days at Xactly working on the product, and I had a rep come up to me, can you please talk to this prospect? He's angry because our product doesn't support a square root function in a plan role. Why on earth are you calculating square root in compensation? Right. It turned out, again, they had a CFO who intelligently realized that if you're plotting the payout curve, you can get one that kind of follows more of a logarithmic or that type of a curve. I said, but there's no reason to do that. I say, because that's really forcing a sales rep to sit there, like, how much do I get?

[10:59] Michael McNary: That's the other thing. The opportunity cost, right, is for folks that are managing every penny and trying to find transparency and track back. Sales should equal these commissionable dollars and finding if there's any delta tracking down the smallest discrepancy is a huge time stock, right. And I've seen reps do it, right. I've seen even in the best systems, reps. For some reason, maybe the complaint is at fault or maybe there is an inherent pessimism about the accuracy of payouts, which there might be. And I think too many folks waste too much time saying, wait, is this right? Or what happened here? I'm supposed to get this, or I thought this, or it looks to me like there might be this missing and before you know, your emails deep and someone spent an hour Xactly. Or another tool, right?

[11:50] Erik Charles: You've wasted finance’s time, you wasted HR’s time and wasted the sales reps time and a sales manager's time. That error costs the company $10,000.

[12:02] Michael McNary: Right.

[12:02] Erik Charles: I mean, honestly, in that opportunity cost. Absolutely right. And I always say it's like we know that in a lot of companies there is a negative attitude towards sales. When a sales reps commission check is wrong, is underpaid, and you have any sort of that negative attitude towards sales percolating in the company, “those are just the pretty boys. Those are just the meatheads that go out there, right.” They're going to blow the whole commission check on a new Mustang or an old one. If you're me, mine is ‘67. The rep then is going to respond to that cultural input with a they cheated me, not oh, somebody probably messed up a credit slipped. Oh, no, it gets personal. Pay is personal. And if your response to a pay request is oh, come on, are you sure about that? It gets more personal. And people forget the personal side that pay is, especially if you're on a 50-50 plan, 50% base, and 50% potential incentive.

[13:06] Michael McNary: This is how people buy their groceries, pay for their kids, schools, people pay their rent or mortgages, right? You talked about a car, right. It's how people get from A to B. I mean, it's how they pay for everything. So it's incredibly personal one. And I think to build off your statement, if there is that negative sense or relationship between sales and whether it's finance or other areas of the organization, all you need is a bad moment like that and have it completely cascade with a chain effect or chain reaction of that person sharing their experience with somebody else and then develops a pessimism. Then all of a sudden you have a small issue that has become scaled out and is now very problematic for your.org impacting. Productivity as well as attrition and morale go on and on, right. So it's interesting, I think you make a really good point about the visibility of what am I going to make when I do A, B or C? It has to be there, right. And the alignment between benefits of the individual and the organization not only need to be there too, but there needs to be a broader perspective from the organization that this is important, this matters and we're aligning it because these efforts create positive outcomes and in some senses keep the lights on for everybody. Right? So that's a really good take, and I think you're dead on and it seems simple, but a lot of people overlook it. Let me ask you this, right? So thinking about modern comp plans, you talk about having the visibility and the alignment. Let's talk about types of pay. Right. Historically there's salary plus it could be salary plus commission. Salary plus commission and bonuses or a combination of those. And then there's been a lot of we'll call them fringe comp opportunities or benefits like contests, spiffs trips, straight cash bonuses in real time or short term. What are your feelings on those in their place in modern account models?

[15:12] Erik Charles: I love them. I'm fully in support with a critical caveat, is don't make your entire comp plan contests. Yeah, and there was a company I worked with that we called them “contests R US”, because they were throwing out contests every single month and those contests had enough leverage in them that rep, they sit on deals until the contest was announced, then finished putting the proposal together and bring it to the company to maximize their pay on that. So their core pay program was no longer driving behavior and everyone waited for the contest. So that's how contest can go really bad. Yes, but contest can be a great way of creating energy. For example, I love contests in Q1, especially because a lot of salespeople, you finish the prior fiscal year, you finally sit back and breathe, assuming you did well and you're still around. You've got that end of year check coming in. Hey, you know what the boss said we've got a contest here that if you can bring anything you can bring in here in, let's say, month two of Q1, we're going to throw a little kicker in it just because we want to kick off this quarter strong and it wakes somebody up. It's a shot of espresso. Yeah, I love those. Let's talk about the trips. Trips are a very interesting one. And actually some of this get into I mention research. Mike Ahern, University of Houston. Tom Steinberg, University of Virginia have done a lot of research and it's overlapped with some work I did with Alan Benson on 80/20 ruling who top reps are and carving your sales population into your leaders, your core performers, and your laggards. Or as I like to call them, the rock stars, the benchmark, and the why did we hire them? You can build one heck of a distribution curve of sales performance out there now rockstars your leaders. You just got to make sure they stay. Alan used Xactly data to do some analysis. Yeah. 20% of the reps bring in 81.2% of the business. So you want to make sure that 20% of your rep population is taken care of. So now let's talk about the core. Back to your question on trips and experiences that the mid tier is possibly not going to get rep of the year. Okay, they're not in the top 20%, but they're still critical to your company's business. They're still bringing in revenue, and they could be next year's great rep. So how can we get them excited? So if you know you're not going to club, for example, and you know you're not going to be fired, how do I get you excited? Well, here's one.

[18:00] Michael McNary: Great.

[18:00] Erik Charles: So you don't get the all expenses paid trip to Barcelona, but the boss is tossing out a nice weekend at the Park High at Chicago for the Midwest with a gift card for a steakhouse, and you might go chase that contest because you can go home to your partner and say, guess what? I just won. That little weekend trip is huge. And then let's take it to your SDRs. Your brand new members of the sales team who are giving sales a shot. A weekly contest for that team can be fantastic. And one of my favorites, I saw we did this Xactly, and I've seen and I've encouraged others. They filled up like 25 helium balloons and attached to each balloon with a card. And once you hit the goal, you could grab a balloon. And then some of the cards were as simple as $25 at Starbucks, which people will do amazing things for Starbucks. But we had hidden in those balloons was a really good set up over the ear, noise canceling from Apple, the Big AirPods Max. Oh, man, they were chasing this stuff and they were having fun. They were laughing. They were both cheering each other on each time you got it. Cheering people on to hitting the contest and waiting to see who we get the super prize. And there are two or three of those. So you're gamifying it. Gamification works. Just don't let it be your comp plan.

[19:34] Michael McNary: Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and you're right about listen, it can create the focus when you need to incent the right behaviors. And you can also scale it as it sounds like. What you're saying is if you need to get one thing accomplished, there's certain ways to pull that lever. And then if you need broader impact there's, go with bigger tickets, right ticket items. But you're right, the above plan shouldn't be more influential or impactful to somebody's w two than the stuff that they get on a week to week. And again, going back to the original point when that's the case, it's too variable and not transparent enough about where that money is going to be coming from, what results you'll yield from certain activities or outputs. And whether people like it or not, the reality is that it's going to create less of an incentive of the right behaviors than say, hey, this is clearly what you get if you do these things right. And hit these targets. So I like your take on that. I think thinking about those things as being some of the ways that organizations try to be agile in how they're paying their sales reps. Right. What are some other ways that you see organizations being able to be agile in the years ahead for comp plans rather than sticking to they will call it legacy but hard and fast annual plans.

[21:00] Erik Charles: Stop doing set it and forget it plans. Okay. The Comp plan Design Committee will be formed here for anybody that's on a calendar fiscal year or close enough to it in a few months. Probably like it'll be either a first meeting before early November, keep fighting about what the plan is going to look like through December and hopefully roll it out to the sales team the first week of January if you're on a calendar fistle. And the number of companies that by the way miss the rollout is way too many because then they wonder why nobody's selling anything in the first month. I'm like, well, because nobody knows what the comp plan is again.

[21:42] Michael McNary: They want to know what they're going to do.

[21:44] Erik Charles: They don't trust you.

[21:45] Michael McNary: That's right.

[21:46] Erik Charles: And I can't wait for the day when we can do one of these and not talk about COVID, but I'm going to talk about COVID now. The number of companies that didn't adjust their comp plan and didn't adjust their approach when all of a sudden nobody was getting on airplanes and there was no such thing as field sales because you weren't allowed out of your house there for a while depending upon where you were, especially when your clients said we're not accepting visitors right now. Think of all the things that got in the way of doing business there for a bit. Yeah, okay. And companies had to adjust their sales approach and they needed to adjust their comp plan to reflect the companies that approach the challenges of the marketplace at that point. And that's why I want to genericize it just using a real example who approach that are the ones that succeeded. They said it's a lot harder to secure brand new customers right now because of this. Let's shift the attention to our existing client base for both renewals and add ons. And actually we saw a huge impact of that measurable statistically significant.

[22:55] Michael McNary: Yes. Once things open back up, I know a lot of people didn't like how their complaint was managed through COVID did not stay.

[23:02] Erik Charles: Yes, you got it. A lot of departures. People said… the smart companies are the ones that, like I said, made everybody more like an inside sales, gave people more authority over existing clients, put more emphasis on up selling existing customers. They changed the plan midstream. They changed the territories midstream. They said, oh, you're not driving around Atlanta anymore, so we're actually going to give you half of another state while we're at it. We're going to shift these things around and that's the first one. You can change the plans. There's no reason why you can't do a plan change mid year.

[23:38] Michael McNary: I think the Pandemic you got it.

[23:41] Erik Charles: You got it. The Pandemic hopefully woke people up to you should be rethinking about all of this.

[23:47] Michael McNary: Yeah, I think if you didn't come out of that with a better sense of your ability and willingness to experiment across the board, then you probably missed an opportunity.

[23:57] Erik Charles: Right, exactly. There's the roles, there's the territories, there's the types of clients you're approaching. What a great time to re audit all of that. Do you have a separate Hunter Farmer model? Should you switch to a hybrid model then? Should you actually put more incentives in front of your customer success reps? Since you're suddenly remembering how important client acquisition is, what else can you be doing here to improve things, to improve the client relationship. Remember, you can prove client relationships through incentives as well. Yeah, a lot of companies I've seen this in prior recessions as well. I remember the recession of the late 2000s. What a lot of companies did was because they froze salary, but they still made it possible to make money off of incentives and they brought that across the board. That kept the company from taking a fixed cost of salary that they are scared of. But they were willing to say, but if you can do something, we'll pay you for it. That's an agile response and that, you know, when you see a competitive challenge, respond to it.

[25:15] Michael McNary: Right.

[25:16] Erik Charles: Let me ask you this.

[25:17] Michael McNary: Yeah, I agree. And I think, listen, we had the best educator and use case in 2020, right. So this should be top of mind to some degree. But let me ask you this question. Outside of are there any other reasons besides this is how we've always done it and this is what we're comfortable with, that companies are maybe unwilling or less willing to manage these things in this agile or less than annual term way?

[25:51] Erik Charles: Absolutely. It's because their entire engine for managing comp is owned by Tammy or Brad in that one random office down the hall and they're the only ones that can change it. And that's especially if you're on an older system or a system that doesn't get good support or haven't helped you. It's a custom built that you cranked out years ago and it just is working in the background and there's a lot of systems. It's like you're still on a legacy piece from one of my competitors or you're still running it off a Microsoft Excel or an Access database. I still see those sometimes.

[26:34] Michael McNary: Interesting, it's less probably about a desire to be more nimble than it is about being bogged down by legacy infrastructure that doesn't give flexibility and you're too tied down to a single point of failure or a single tool of restriction.

[26:54] Erik Charles: You got it. You've let your systems dictate your strategy.

[26:59] Michael McNary: Yeah.

[27:00] Erik Charles: Terrible world to try and operate in.

[27:02] Michael McNary: Yeah. Managing this has a lot of moving pieces. Right. And if you don't have the right tools, and if you think about what comp plans and comp management looked like ten years ago, 15 years ago, it's a whole different world. Right. And I think getting on that train does allow for some of the things we're talking about. Right. Adaptive comp planning, as well as being nimble and addressing the market quarter by quarter, maybe or semiannually. Do you think that there is a benefit or an advantage to doing it on any certain cadence, or is it maybe company specific? We're just wondering if you think it should be a six month plan or a quarterly or all of them can work if done properly. I don't know.

[27:53] Erik Charles: I mean, an annual plan with quarterly measures is still my usual place where I start. And some companies, it depends on how much deal flow you've got going on. Some companies have got daily deal flow, so they can be shorter, period. But companies should at minimum, be doing a half year audit, quick check, and even. Let's go back to those contests. If you do a contest to try and move a certain product, you think, nobody seems to be selling this particular additional feature that we have. Let's do a contest around it. And then at the end of that contest, if you do not back up and say, did we sell more of that feature under the contest than we sold before?

[28:38] Michael McNary: Yes.

[28:38] Erik Charles: Then you miss it if you just say, awesome, we moved 112 licenses for this additional feature, 112 units into Massachusetts because we tested this contest in Massachusetts. Right, but what did you move into Massachusetts? Where did you move into an equivalent prior period? Give me a baseline. I always have that baseline. So that's for the contest, for any incentive plan, just backing up and looking at it and seeing what rules are even triggering what things are happening, is it having an impact? Who is falling behind? Who's coming ahead? Are the people that are winning, the people we want to be winning. And by that I mean, remember, people will gain the plan. People will manipulate the plan all day long. You can have a rep hit their personal earnings, and that's a big rule. Remember, their numbers are not your numbers, the reps numbers, and you said this earlier, are what's in their w two. It's what's in their wallet. Your numbers are going to be revenue or EBITDA or new logo acquisition. But when they go home, they're not going to say, honey, it's great. We now have 13 new logos I'm responsible for it's going to be, no, honey, it's great. I nailed it. I got the accelerator and we got a check.

[29:54] Michael McNary: My check looks like this. Exactly right.

[29:57] Erik Charles: People forget that they get so excited about the.

[29:59] Michael McNary: Plan.

[30:00] Erik Charles: They forget to back up and say how much money will someone take home?

[30:04] Michael McNary: Yeah, and listen, you mentioned it and I'm a big proponent of looking at things this way. This is incredibly personal topic, right. And I think anybody who sold understands it, but anybody who hasn't, they get their paycheck. And it is so important and integral to everything that someone does in their life for 99% of the population, right? Not that everyone does paycheck to paycheck, but what their paycheck looks like, dictates their lifestyle or their decisions or their options when they say people tend to spend what they have in their pocket, right? So it has a day to day impact and messing with that tends to impact security, confidence, happiness as well as someone's buy in towards the organization that's sending those checks.

[30:56] Erik Charles: There's someone on your sales team that is the squirrel. They are the one that always figures out how to manipulate the game. They're the one that somehow gets upgraded to business on the way to sales club. Just work in the system, bring the comp plan you're designing to that person and ask them how would you maximize your pay? And bluntly, not do anything for the company. What am I missing? I used to do this as a designer. How would I break this plan to make the maximum amount of money?

[31:30] Michael McNary: I think there's a lot there. I love what you're talking about here in terms of looking at compensation in an adaptive way, being agile. I think that there's real opportunity when companies do this in a strategic way. If I'm thinking about maybe the three key takeaways from our conversation today for the listeners, I think that first one has been recurring, which is make the connections clear, right? If a sales stakeholder does A, they are going to yield B, right? And any murkiness between the action and the results takes away from how much you're able to incent, right. Behaviors and outcomes. The second kind of takeaway is kind of the theme overall here is be agile, right? Stay away from set it and forget it. Find intervals or opportunities to innovate that are win wins for the organization and for your sales stakeholders, right? And then finally audit your strategy if you're making changes, whether it's in your comp plans or how you're managing above plan incentives measure. Has this had the impact we were hoping? Look at it relative to historical or expectations or forecasts. Did this have a line moving result by us doing this that way you'll figure out what you should keep doing and what you should kind of punt on and move on from. So I think those are really great takeaways and I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us and share some of your thoughts. Eric, it's been great having you and also hearing about some of the stuff that Xactly is doing. If our listeners want to get in touch with you. What's the best way for them to reach you?

[33:17] Erik Charles: I'm always open to LinkedIn connections. E-R-I-K-C-H-A-R-L-E-S. If they're looking for me, they're welcome to drop me an email. Echarles at Xactlycorp. I mean, I don't mind it. I love the outreach.

[33:30] Michael McNary: Well, that's great, and I'm sure folks will appreciate that. And thank you for all the great intel here. And we appreciate being a guest on the pod.

[33:38] Erik Charles: Thanks a lot. Thanks for the invitation.

[33:40] Michael McNary: Talk of the Trade is hosted by Mimeo, the better Way to print. Find out more at www.mimeo.com.

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