Hybrid Learning: How to Know When to Use It Brian Washburn breaks down how to decide which training delivery methods to use depending on your budget, learner population, and training objectives. TranscriptTom Moriarty: 00:00:01Welcome! You made it to the Secret Society ofTom Moriarty: 00:00:03Success! In this not-so-secret podcast, we interview L&DTom Moriarty: 00:00:07changemakers about how they approach the evolving corporateTom Moriarty: 00:00:10environment and cultivate their own careers. We hope that fromTom Moriarty: 00:00:14their stories, you find lessons and inspirations to makeTom Moriarty: 00:00:17yourself, your people and your organization's more successful.Tom Moriarty: 00:00:21In this first season, we're exploring the topic of hybridlearning: 00:00:24what that means at different organizations, why itlearning: 00:00:27is increasingly important, and how L&D leaders can invest inlearning: 00:00:30the right resources to best leverage it. Today, we're goinglearning: 00:00:35to talk about how to decide what the right mix of hybrid learninglearning: 00:00:38is for your strategy. To do this, we've invited Brianlearning: 00:00:41Washburn to talk this through. Brian is a co founder oflearning: 00:00:45Endurance Learning, author of What's Your Formula?, and hostlearning: 00:00:49of the podcast Train Like You Listen. Welcome, Brian. Thankslearning: 00:00:52for joining us.Brian Washburn: 00:00:53Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited to beBrian Washburn: 00:00:55here.Tom Moriarty: 00:00:55Brian, you know, we shared a little bit aboutTom Moriarty: 00:00:58your background in the intro. But why don't you share a littleTom Moriarty: 00:01:00bit about your background and L&D and the philosophy behindTom Moriarty: 00:01:03Endurance Learning?Brian Washburn: 00:01:04Yeah, so I think my start in the world ofBrian Washburn: 00:01:08training might even be traced back to my freshman year at theBrian Washburn: 00:01:13end of my freshman year of college at the George WashingtonBrian Washburn: 00:01:16University, when I tried out to be the mascot at the school. AndBrian Washburn: 00:01:21that was an opportunity for me to really tap into my creativeBrian Washburn: 00:01:25side and figure out, you know, kind of the sky was the limit toBrian Washburn: 00:01:29engage people. And so if you fast forward a little bit more,Brian Washburn: 00:01:35I actually began doing training of people about 25 years ago asBrian Washburn: 00:01:40a Peace Corps volunteer. And in the time since I've mostlyBrian Washburn: 00:01:45worked in the nonprofit space, I started as a GED instructor at aBrian Washburn: 00:01:49youth center in Washington, DC, I've led training teams atBrian Washburn: 00:01:54organizations that focus on foster care, or eye banking. AndBrian Washburn: 00:01:59then the idea for Endurance Learning came along at someBrian Washburn: 00:02:02point. And our vision is really that every learning experienceBrian Washburn: 00:02:08can be engaging and lead to change. And so you combine theBrian Washburn: 00:02:13mascot in with work in Paraguay as a Peace Corps volunteer andBrian Washburn: 00:02:19work in nonprofits that oftentimes have to run on aBrian Washburn: 00:02:21shoestring budget, and kind of combine all of that. And that'sBrian Washburn: 00:02:26really where the philosophy of Endurance Learning came along.Brian Washburn: 00:02:31But beyond all of that experience, I had theBrian Washburn: 00:02:34opportunity to write a book that was released last year, and youBrian Washburn: 00:02:39mentioned it called What's Your formula?: Combined LearningBrian Washburn: 00:02:42Elements for Impactful Training. And that really revolves aroundBrian Washburn: 00:02:46a Periodic Table of Elements of Effective and Engaging training.Brian Washburn: 00:02:52And so when we think of all the different ways that people canBrian Washburn: 00:02:55learn, I love that we're talking here about a hybrid approach,Brian Washburn: 00:03:00because at the end of the day, while the book is called, What'sBrian Washburn: 00:03:02your formula? And while we're talking here about someBrian Washburn: 00:03:06different contexts, for the hybrid may work, the fact of theBrian Washburn: 00:03:09matter is that there's no one right answer to a formula. TheBrian Washburn: 00:03:15key is to find the right formula that works for eachBrian Washburn: 00:03:17organization, or each team with which we're working.Tom Moriarty: 00:03:21Yeah. That's great. I appreciate you sharingTom Moriarty: 00:03:23the background. And I love that concept. I think that's whenTom Moriarty: 00:03:25we're going to spend a lot of time during this conversationTom Moriarty: 00:03:28unpacking, which is, you know, not that there's not there'sTom Moriarty: 00:03:31never one right answer, it's the right answer for you. And how doTom Moriarty: 00:03:34you help figure out what that is? Right? What are the steps toTom Moriarty: 00:03:37take to actually decide what that right answer is, in theTom Moriarty: 00:03:40context of your organization, to level set the conversation,Tom Moriarty: 00:03:44Brian, I'd love it, if you could, from your perspective,Tom Moriarty: 00:03:48define for us. What does hybrid learning mean to you?Brian Washburn: 00:03:52Yeah, I love the fact that we're going to set theBrian Washburn: 00:03:56level here as we get started, because there are so many termsBrian Washburn: 00:04:00that we toss out that people just assume we're talking aboutBrian Washburn: 00:04:04the same thing, because we're using the same word. And it'sBrian Washburn: 00:04:06not necessarily the case. Like I drive a hybrid vehicle. Now, IBrian Washburn: 00:04:10have driven gas powered vehicles, I had a Nissan LEAFBrian Washburn: 00:04:14for a while, and it was all electric. And now my Honda CRVBrian Washburn: 00:04:18is hybrid. So it mixes gas and battery. And that's two things.Brian Washburn: 00:04:21And so a lot of times when people think hybrid, they thinkBrian Washburn: 00:04:24two things. And when I use that term, I think hybrid can haveBrian Washburn: 00:04:30all sorts of things, right? It's but basically, the key there isBrian Washburn: 00:04:33that there's some sort of mix, but it doesn't have to be justBrian Washburn: 00:04:37two things. Post pandemic, I've heard a lot of people use theBrian Washburn: 00:04:40term hybrid to describe a mix of virtual - which is what we allBrian Washburn: 00:04:44had to do during the lockdown - and in-person, you know, we'reBrian Washburn: 00:04:48returning to in person, but I would broaden that definition aBrian Washburn: 00:04:52bit simply to mean you know, when I'm thinking of hybrid orBrian Washburn: 00:04:56when I'm using that term here, it's a mix of more than oneBrian Washburn: 00:04:59learning In delivery methods, so it could include in person, itBrian Washburn: 00:05:03could include virtual, both of those are live instructor led,Brian Washburn: 00:05:06it could include elearning, which is oftentimes self guided,Brian Washburn: 00:05:10it could be self directed learning paths, informalBrian Washburn: 00:05:13learning, as part of an overall learning strategy. So a lot ofBrian Washburn: 00:05:18those things, I think can be blended into some sort of hybridBrian Washburn: 00:05:21approach.Tom Moriarty: 00:05:23if you will, is really what hybrid is. So ITom Moriarty: 00:05:30think where we really want to focus this discussion is, what'sTom Moriarty: 00:05:37the right mix for me?Brian Washburn: 00:05:39Yep.Tom Moriarty: 00:05:39You hit on it perfectly earlier, Brian, whenTom Moriarty: 00:05:41you said, you know, there's not one right answer. And I loveTom Moriarty: 00:05:45that philosophy. It's a philosophy I've applied and inTom Moriarty: 00:05:48my profession with my teams and a sales organization, because ITom Moriarty: 00:05:51completely agree with you. So let's actually unpack theTom Moriarty: 00:05:56specifics like what are the variables that might influenceTom Moriarty: 00:06:00how you determine what the right formula of hybrid would be inTom Moriarty: 00:06:04the context of your organization? So I've got aTom Moriarty: 00:06:07bunch of terms here that you and I prepped before, let's justTom Moriarty: 00:06:10start going down each of those and say, Okay, well, how do youTom Moriarty: 00:06:12make the decision based on factor A, or factor B, or factorTom Moriarty: 00:06:16C? And hopefully, give the audience a lot of fun stuff toTom Moriarty: 00:06:19take away? Sound? Good?Brian Washburn: 00:06:20That sounds great. I love it. Awesome.Tom Moriarty: 00:06:22So let's start with budget. That's always a bigTom Moriarty: 00:06:24question, right? Well, how do you use budget as a factor toTom Moriarty: 00:06:27consider what the right delivery method is?Brian Washburn: 00:06:29Yeah. So and I think this is a really good oneBrian Washburn: 00:06:33to start with, because oftentimes, it's the first thingBrian Washburn: 00:06:35that is put in front of us, right. And so when budgets aBrian Washburn: 00:06:39consideration, a lot of times it can be cost prohibitive to allowBrian Washburn: 00:06:44people to travel, which oftentimes is a bigBrian Washburn: 00:06:48consideration, especially with dispersed teams. And so this,Brian Washburn: 00:06:53this, this could be a situation in which you turn to virtualBrian Washburn: 00:06:57training. So perhaps one element to that hybrid approach could beBrian Washburn: 00:07:02making sure that things are virtual, so that no matter whereBrian Washburn: 00:07:05you are in the world, you can take advantage of the technologyBrian Washburn: 00:07:09and still have something that's facilitated and advantage to aBrian Washburn: 00:07:13facilitated experience, whether you're in person or virtual. ButBrian Washburn: 00:07:17when we're talking about budget, you know, sometimes we have toBrian Washburn: 00:07:20go virtual, a big advantage of that is that you can have liveBrian Washburn: 00:07:23discussions. And you can have activities with real timeBrian Washburn: 00:07:28feedback. And the reason I mentioned this is because I wasBrian Washburn: 00:07:31working on a project just last week, and I was reviewing anBrian Washburn: 00:07:34elearning, a self directed elearning project with aBrian Washburn: 00:07:37customer and the subject matter experts, when we're going overBrian Washburn: 00:07:43an assessment question. One of them said, you know, I'd chooseBrian Washburn: 00:07:47choice A, and the other one said, Actually, I'd chooseBrian Washburn: 00:07:50choice B. And so we realized, wow, that would be a greatBrian Washburn: 00:07:55question, for facilitated situation. But because we wereBrian Washburn: 00:08:00creating elearning, we had to be much more specific and much moreBrian Washburn: 00:08:05kind of dogmatic in terms of what we allowed people toBrian Washburn: 00:08:08answer, how we allowed people to answer. So I think that evenBrian Washburn: 00:08:11when budget is a concern, I love having some sort of live elementBrian Washburn: 00:08:17as an opportunity to learn, because you can have thatBrian Washburn: 00:08:21facilitated discussion, you can throw things out where there isBrian Washburn: 00:08:24gray area, and you're able to kind of engage with that grayBrian Washburn: 00:08:28area. Some disadvantages to virtual training include theBrian Washburn: 00:08:33fact that presenters or participants who aren'tBrian Washburn: 00:08:37comfortable with the technology, and believe it or not, two plusBrian Washburn: 00:08:41years after we all started to go to zoom or teams or whatever.Brian Washburn: 00:08:46There are still some people, both presenters and participantsBrian Washburn: 00:08:51who aren't comfortable with that technology of going intoBrian Washburn: 00:08:54breakout rooms, some people will still leave a session, when youBrian Washburn: 00:08:59put breakout rooms up. Or some some presenters don't loveBrian Washburn: 00:09:04having to or maybe can't... don't have the cognitiveBrian Washburn: 00:09:07bandwidth to be facilitating a session and if they don't have aBrian Washburn: 00:09:11producer to use some of the the tools that really make virtual,Brian Washburn: 00:09:15a much more engaging experience. Another issue that comes withBrian Washburn: 00:09:20any sort of virtual experience, especially with dispersed teams,Brian Washburn: 00:09:23again, is timezone differences and allowing for timezoneBrian Washburn: 00:09:27differences and having to repeat the same session multiple times.Brian Washburn: 00:09:31Another one that you always need to be mindful of, especiallyBrian Washburn: 00:09:34with virtual, is the propensity of people to want to multitask.Brian Washburn: 00:09:38So there's tons of advantages to virtual but then there are someBrian Washburn: 00:09:42things you need to be kind of aware of too. Another piece thatBrian Washburn: 00:09:47goes into considering for budget would be self directedBrian Washburn: 00:09:52elearning. I think that that can be a really, really importantBrian Washburn: 00:09:55piece. Again, if we're talking about dispersed teams and budgetBrian Washburn: 00:09:58impacting any sort of travel possibilities, self directedBrian Washburn: 00:10:01elearning it can be pricey sometimes depending on what youBrian Washburn: 00:10:05want to do. But it's also scalable, right. And so when youBrian Washburn: 00:10:09think of the cost of per per learner, or the cost over aBrian Washburn: 00:10:13series of time, you can start to really make the case for thatBrian Washburn: 00:10:17every learner will get a consistent experience. So itBrian Washburn: 00:10:20doesn't depend on the facilitator, it can be used asBrian Washburn: 00:10:23follow up to a facilitated session, if you're if you areBrian Washburn: 00:10:26doing using a hybrid mix, or it can be used as as a prerequisiteBrian Washburn: 00:10:31to a facilitated session so that people get some content. AndBrian Washburn: 00:10:34then when they come, virtually, you can, or even in person, youBrian Washburn: 00:10:39can actually have people, you can make them smaller sessions,Brian Washburn: 00:10:43and people can can engage a little bit more like a flippedBrian Washburn: 00:10:46classroom type of approach. If you know you're going to have aBrian Washburn: 00:10:49facilitated session after an elearning course, then theBrian Washburn: 00:10:53elearning course doesn't need branching scenarios, which canBrian Washburn: 00:10:56sometimes be more expensive to develop. And so when you startBrian Washburn: 00:11:00to mix some some different delivery strategies, you canBrian Washburn: 00:11:03take the best of both worlds, without needing to go all inBrian Washburn: 00:11:07with your budget on one or the other. Of course, all of thisBrian Washburn: 00:11:11assumes that formal training would be a solution in the firstBrian Washburn: 00:11:14place. And even if it is informal learning pieces canBrian Washburn: 00:11:18also help with budgets and issues. So that could includeBrian Washburn: 00:11:21things just as simple as job aids, right? So if if, if budgetBrian Washburn: 00:11:26is a consideration, you know, is training even the answer? Or,Brian Washburn: 00:11:31you know, can you use job aids or mixed job aids in with someBrian Washburn: 00:11:34of the other things that you're doing, that can be posted on theBrian Washburn: 00:11:37Internet, or YouTube or podcasts or Google, book clubs, you know,Brian Washburn: 00:11:42mentoring, all of those things can can really be part of a mixBrian Washburn: 00:11:46when budget, especially as a concern.Tom Moriarty: 00:11:48I love that I love some of those takeaways,Tom Moriarty: 00:11:50specifically as it relates to that concept of, you know, whenTom Moriarty: 00:11:54do I need to use live? I wrote that down as we're talking and ITom Moriarty: 00:11:57think the idea of do you need to engage in gray area? Right?Tom Moriarty: 00:12:00That's kind of a simple, yes, no question you can work with, youTom Moriarty: 00:12:05know, the stakeholders that you have, or the audience you'reTom Moriarty: 00:12:08delivering training for, to achieve some sort of businessTom Moriarty: 00:12:11outcome and say, Okay, well, is there is there nuance to this?Tom Moriarty: 00:12:13Is there a gray area? If yes, we're probably going to need toTom Moriarty: 00:12:16factor some sort of live component to this budget,Tom Moriarty: 00:12:19because it'd be really complicated for us to doTom Moriarty: 00:12:22effective training. Without that live interaction, I think that'sTom Moriarty: 00:12:26a really interesting and straightforward way to justTom Moriarty: 00:12:30decide, hey, is this a tool that I need for this scenario?Brian Washburn: 00:12:33Yeah, yep. And, and when you think of, you know,Brian Washburn: 00:12:36anything that is going to be done via kind of elearning, it'sBrian Washburn: 00:12:42documented, it's in writing, it's there. And sometimes itBrian Washburn: 00:12:45makes people really uncomfortable, right? So and,Brian Washburn: 00:12:48and honestly, when it comes to some policies, when you think ofBrian Washburn: 00:12:51HR policies, or there's all there, there is gray area, butBrian Washburn: 00:12:56you don't necessarily want to have that in writing. And soBrian Washburn: 00:12:58that's another opportunity to think about, you know, what roleBrian Washburn: 00:13:02does live instructor led have? Where, as you know, it may notBrian Washburn: 00:13:07be as appropriate to do it in some sort of job aid, orBrian Washburn: 00:13:12eLearning module or things like that. Right?Tom Moriarty: 00:13:15That could be a good segue, let's talk about howTom Moriarty: 00:13:18the audience impacts these decisions, specifically, who theTom Moriarty: 00:13:22audience is. So you know, the people within the organizationTom Moriarty: 00:13:25who you're delivering training for, how might that impact yourTom Moriarty: 00:13:29decisions? In terms of the delivery methods you choose?Brian Washburn: 00:13:33I think that's a great question. And so theBrian Washburn: 00:13:36audience is really important piece of that analysis, youBrian Washburn: 00:13:39know, who are we delivering this to? If it is executive level orBrian Washburn: 00:13:42senior level folks, they don't always have time to sit throughBrian Washburn: 00:13:48a class, or sit through a 30 minute eLearning module, norBrian Washburn: 00:13:53will they have the attention span. And so if you're thinkingBrian Washburn: 00:13:55executive level, you need to really think through what's whatBrian Washburn: 00:13:59do they what is absolutely crucial, and how do we deliverBrian Washburn: 00:14:03that? That could simply be a one pager that talks about someBrian Washburn: 00:14:08differences. It could be, you know, some sort of microBrian Washburn: 00:14:12learning that you want to put in there. You know, if it'sBrian Washburn: 00:14:16something that the entire organization needs to go throughBrian Washburn: 00:14:21for compliance reasons or things like that, again, you want toBrian Washburn: 00:14:25kind of figure out what's that going to be that sweet spot. AndBrian Washburn: 00:14:29we haven't even talked about micro learning very much here.Brian Washburn: 00:14:31It wasn't even something that I put into my notes, but it isBrian Washburn: 00:14:33something that we'll want to keep in mind when whenBrian Washburn: 00:14:35considering an audience that may be super, super busy. Now, ifBrian Washburn: 00:14:40we're thinking of rule specific training, or even training thatBrian Washburn: 00:14:44everybody needs to take, but different people in differentBrian Washburn: 00:14:47roles or with different responsibilities throughout theBrian Washburn: 00:14:49organization. You know, I love the idea of having elearning asBrian Washburn: 00:14:54a piece to that, because with elearning, you can design it toBrian Washburn: 00:14:58ask what somebody's role is from a drop down menu. And then youBrian Washburn: 00:15:02can skip over certain points if it's not relevant for them, youBrian Washburn: 00:15:05know, the relevance is an important important piece to anyBrian Washburn: 00:15:09sort of learning strategy. And so finding ways for people toBrian Washburn: 00:15:13either to test out, or to skip over certain information that'sBrian Washburn: 00:15:17not relevant to their role, I think is pretty important. WhenBrian Washburn: 00:15:22you have differentiated self directed learning, you know, andBrian Washburn: 00:15:26I'm just reading the book Map It by Cathy Moore, and she givesBrian Washburn: 00:15:30this great example of, you know, kind of a compliance trainingBrian Washburn: 00:15:34that somebody at a hospital wanted, right, they wanted to doBrian Washburn: 00:15:37a training about how to dispose of sharps. Now, the personBrian Washburn: 00:15:40handling a scalpel to a surgeon might need certain information,Brian Washburn: 00:15:44the nurse who administers injections might need certainBrian Washburn: 00:15:46information, accountants or janitorial staff, might, a lotBrian Washburn: 00:15:51of it might not be relevant to them, right. So but if everybodyBrian Washburn: 00:15:54needs to know, at least where to find the job aids, or where theBrian Washburn: 00:15:56other things are, where things are posted, where the sharpsBrian Washburn: 00:15:58disposal is, then, you know, expose them to that information,Brian Washburn: 00:16:02but you don't have to expose them to everything. So role,Brian Washburn: 00:16:05role based learning, I think, is something to really consider.Brian Washburn: 00:16:11And there are some different ways to do it, you know, selfBrian Washburn: 00:16:14directed elearning, as I mentioned, but you know, simplyBrian Washburn: 00:16:18leaving things to a quick job aid or micro learning, and canBrian Washburn: 00:16:22also be really helpful in that in that regard.Tom Moriarty: 00:16:24That's great. I like that. I think those areTom Moriarty: 00:16:26very, two very specific and actionable takeaways, right? IfTom Moriarty: 00:16:28you if you are getting really narrow focus, or if there'sTom Moriarty: 00:16:32something that's broad, but has narrow nuance, depending on theTom Moriarty: 00:16:36roles in the organization, I think thinking about, you know,Tom Moriarty: 00:16:39job specific elearning is a really valuable, specific way toTom Moriarty: 00:16:43think about that. So I think that's, you know, obviously thatTom Moriarty: 00:16:46reminder, with the, with the executive audience of beTom Moriarty: 00:16:50thoughtful of their time. What they need, and probably nothingTom Moriarty: 00:16:53else, right, is definitely a good one. And it's a good one,Tom Moriarty: 00:16:57to probably have you in the audience takeaway. A good way toTom Moriarty: 00:17:00keep them in your corner as well. What related to audienceTom Moriarty: 00:17:04not the not the who, but maybe how big? Yeah, does thatTom Moriarty: 00:17:08influence what you're going to decide to do?Brian Washburn: 00:17:10Yeah, one of the trickiest things, that theBrian Washburn: 00:17:12biggest challenges that I'm ever faced with is when people say,Brian Washburn: 00:17:16you know, we need to develop a one-to-one training, which isBrian Washburn: 00:17:20like, well, I'm wired to do classroom, and classroom doesn'tBrian Washburn: 00:17:26work with one-on-one. And so what do you do when you need toBrian Washburn: 00:17:27just kind of train individuals because of hiring cycles,Brian Washburn: 00:17:28because it's a small organization, because they'reBrian Washburn: 00:17:29specialized roles, you know, one to one, it doesn't make sense toBrian Washburn: 00:17:30do a ton of formal classroom training or even, you know,Brian Washburn: 00:17:44virtual training, but some hybrid strategies that couldBrian Washburn: 00:17:48work with one to one include, you know, I've talked aboutBrian Washburn: 00:17:51micro learning, self directed learning, job shadowing,Brian Washburn: 00:17:56independent study, and journaling, regular mentoring,Brian Washburn: 00:17:59have some sort of learning path, that people that individuals areBrian Washburn: 00:18:04able to go through, maybe it's checklist with their supervisor,Brian Washburn: 00:18:06things like that, you know, sometimes you have a lot ofBrian Washburn: 00:18:09people. So going from one extreme to the other, fromBrian Washburn: 00:18:12individual training, to training a ton of people. And if they'reBrian Washburn: 00:18:16all in the same place, you know, classroom training can be aBrian Washburn: 00:18:19really important element. Again, it's an opportunity forBrian Washburn: 00:18:22elearning to be either something that's pre work or to introduceBrian Washburn: 00:18:26the topic or post training, follow up. If they're dispersed,Brian Washburn: 00:18:30you may want to combine things like virtual sessions, or selfBrian Washburn: 00:18:34paced elearning, maybe even break people up into cohortsBrian Washburn: 00:18:38where there can be some social learning as well, people have anBrian Washburn: 00:18:41opportunity to make relationships a little bitBrian Washburn: 00:18:43better when the groups are smaller. And then, you know,Brian Washburn: 00:18:46even a multi week online course, something that you might findBrian Washburn: 00:18:51similar to the way that universities run these days, orBrian Washburn: 00:18:55things like that. So it could be a facilitated online course asBrian Washburn: 00:18:58well. So you can have a couple of different extremes. I thinkBrian Washburn: 00:19:01that a lot of people kind of find a natural sweet spot inBrian Washburn: 00:19:06training people, groups, as small as six to is, you know,Brian Washburn: 00:19:0930-40 people. But when you have one on one, that's a differentBrian Washburn: 00:19:13set of kind of learning activities or learningBrian Washburn: 00:19:16strategies might want to take. And when you have a really largeBrian Washburn: 00:19:20group, that might be something different as well.Tom Moriarty: 00:19:23Yeah, that's great. Brian, I love the factTom Moriarty: 00:19:25that you focused on the outliers, I think, because likeTom Moriarty: 00:19:27you said, I think the audience is familiar with the deck groupTom Moriarty: 00:19:33size of six to 30. Right? That's, that's the sweet spotTom Moriarty: 00:19:36that everyone's familiar with. But the takeaway is of jobTom Moriarty: 00:19:40shadowing, mentoring and micro learning for one on one group isTom Moriarty: 00:19:43great, I might borrow some of those. We're in the process ofTom Moriarty: 00:19:46hiring a class of one right now on one of my teams because ofTom Moriarty: 00:19:49the way it works sometimes. And then also the big audience. ITom Moriarty: 00:19:52love that idea of the cohorting to drive you know, kind of moreTom Moriarty: 00:19:55of a social learning, right? Like if you're even if you haveTom Moriarty: 00:19:58a course over multiple weeks. You know, the idea of puttingTom Moriarty: 00:20:01cohorts together that might be cross functions that could justTom Moriarty: 00:20:04have a social element to that learning experience where theyTom Moriarty: 00:20:07can share and learn from one another. I love that. That's aTom Moriarty: 00:20:09really awesome takeaway.Brian Washburn: 00:20:11Yeah. And just to go back really quick to theBrian Washburn: 00:20:14one on one. One of the most powerful tools I think with withBrian Washburn: 00:20:19small groups, or one on one is a checklist, right? So that personBrian Washburn: 00:20:24knows what to expect, what the order should be, you know, whereBrian Washburn: 00:20:28some certain resources are, their supervisor can kind of whoBrian Washburn: 00:20:32may have 50 other things happening, but is responsibleBrian Washburn: 00:20:36for their development as well can kind of see where theirBrian Washburn: 00:20:38progress is. And so that is another piece to just keeping itBrian Washburn: 00:20:43organized. But also, I think that's part of the strategy.Tom Moriarty: 00:20:46Yeah, that's great, simple tools, right? ItTom Moriarty: 00:20:47doesn't have to be doesn't have to be complicated, just use theTom Moriarty: 00:20:50right tool for the right job. I think which is really kind ofTom Moriarty: 00:20:54the whole the whole major takeaway from this discussion.Tom Moriarty: 00:20:56So you mentioned it earlier, you know, in spite of the fact thatTom Moriarty: 00:21:00we've all been living on Zoom for the better part of the lastTom Moriarty: 00:21:0248 months or so, your digital literacy is still a thing inTom Moriarty: 00:21:05many organizations, right? Or we all get the dreaded systemTom Moriarty: 00:21:09reboot, or software update that comes on a Friday, right beforeTom Moriarty: 00:21:12a training session. And then then all bets are reallyTom Moriarty: 00:21:15awesome. How does that factor come into consideration asTom Moriarty: 00:21:20you're trying to plan for the right delivery method?Brian Washburn: 00:21:23Yeah, so honestly, ideally, when you'reBrian Washburn: 00:21:26addressing some sort of digital literacy issue, in-personBrian Washburn: 00:21:31instruction can can be helpful, right? I, I rarely have issuesBrian Washburn: 00:21:36with with people with digital literacy, when I'm doing an inBrian Washburn: 00:21:39person, instructor led training. Now, sometimes that's notBrian Washburn: 00:21:42possible. And so other pieces that are really, reallyBrian Washburn: 00:21:46important whether people are ...anytime that technology isBrian Washburn: 00:21:50part of that hybrid approach, things like job aids that justBrian Washburn: 00:21:55help people log in or trying to take advantage of technologiesBrian Washburn: 00:21:59that people are familiar with, right? So email, you can send aBrian Washburn: 00:22:03diagram of how to log in and how to kind of proceed through aBrian Washburn: 00:22:07certain thing, or if you're going to send somebody you know,Brian Washburn: 00:22:10a podcast that they should be listening to, you know, kind ofBrian Washburn: 00:22:13give them a visual aid in terms of step by step instructions. OrBrian Washburn: 00:22:16if they have to download something to your computer,Brian Washburn: 00:22:20giving people visual aids in terms of step by stepBrian Washburn: 00:22:22instructions, in order to access it, I think is going to beBrian Washburn: 00:22:25really important. Sometimes is not just digital literacy, I'veBrian Washburn: 00:22:29worked with some groups where literacy itself is an issue,Brian Washburn: 00:22:34especially when we when we do some work in the developingBrian Washburn: 00:22:38world. And we need to really rely on job aids. They have veryBrian Washburn: 00:22:44little text. We have to really kind of also, again, not loseBrian Washburn: 00:22:51sight of the power of things like mentoring, or justBrian Washburn: 00:22:56relationships in those areas. When it goes beyond digitalBrian Washburn: 00:23:01literacy, and while we're talking about differentBrian Washburn: 00:23:05settings, whether it's rural areas here, or even my my homeBrian Washburn: 00:23:10office, right, so sometimes home offices, even if you're in theBrian Washburn: 00:23:13most advanced parts of the world, Seattle, home of AmazonBrian Washburn: 00:23:17and Microsoft. And yet, I still struggle with bandwidth issues.Brian Washburn: 00:23:23And so sometimes bandwidth is another challenge where we needBrian Washburn: 00:23:27to come up with one or more ways of delivering, learning. And soBrian Washburn: 00:23:33when it comes to low bandwidth areas, for internet, sometimesBrian Washburn: 00:23:36you can, you know, have people rely on on their smartphones andBrian Washburn: 00:23:41using data, you can still run a Zoom meeting or deliverBrian Washburn: 00:23:45elearning to a mobile device. And then when you start talkingBrian Washburn: 00:23:48about mobile devices, you're going to need to take intoBrian Washburn: 00:23:51account how are we designing that training? Are people goingBrian Washburn: 00:23:54to be taking this on their laptops or on their phone or onBrian Washburn: 00:23:58a tablet, than if they're taking it on tablet? Should we say youBrian Washburn: 00:24:01know, click on because you're not clicking on anything. WhenBrian Washburn: 00:24:04you have your phone, right, you're tapping. And so the wordsBrian Washburn: 00:24:08that we use in instructions suddenly become important, theBrian Washburn: 00:24:11types of activities that we put into any sort of digitalBrian Washburn: 00:24:15training, if it's going to be elearning, you know, do drag andBrian Washburn: 00:24:18drop activities work as well on a phone. Do slider activitiesBrian Washburn: 00:24:22work as well in a phone. And so you do need to also take some ofBrian Washburn: 00:24:26the design considerations into account when you're designingBrian Washburn: 00:24:30for low bandwidth or, you know, people who struggle with digitalBrian Washburn: 00:24:33literacy.Tom Moriarty: 00:24:34Yeah, I would imagine that that could alsoTom Moriarty: 00:24:36impact, you know, tool selection as well, right? If you haveTom Moriarty: 00:24:40tools that you need, you know, you know, you're going to needTom Moriarty: 00:24:44to deliver whether it is microlearning, a virtualTom Moriarty: 00:24:49instructor led session, right? There are tools out there, someTom Moriarty: 00:24:53of which give you the ability for some offline connectivityTom Moriarty: 00:24:55now, it'll always require a download at some point, soTom Moriarty: 00:24:59you'll have to have bandwidth at some point. But you know,Tom Moriarty: 00:25:02considering your audience and their bandwidth and theirTom Moriarty: 00:25:05connectivity. You know, that's another factor I would imagineTom Moriarty: 00:25:09the audience should probably be considering when they're tryingTom Moriarty: 00:25:11to put together the right formula for their, theirTom Moriarty: 00:25:13business.Brian Washburn: 00:25:14Yep.Tom Moriarty: 00:25:19How does...How does the objective of theTom Moriarty: 00:25:21course... at the end of the day, this is the most importantTom Moriarty: 00:25:25question, right? You're designing, learning to achieveTom Moriarty: 00:25:29something to achieve some outcomes a behavior change? HowTom Moriarty: 00:25:33does the scope of that objective influence the way that you mightTom Moriarty: 00:25:36pick your right delivery pieces or your formula?Brian Washburn: 00:25:39Yeah, I think this is a really, reallyBrian Washburn: 00:25:41important question. So you know, a lot of times you you need toBrian Washburn: 00:25:46define your learning objectives before you figure out, you know,Brian Washburn: 00:25:48how am I going to deliver this? Right? So? So you're thinking,Brian Washburn: 00:25:53Okay, what is it that people need to be able to do? And thenBrian Washburn: 00:25:56you're thinking, who's my audience? And how can they bestBrian Washburn: 00:25:58digest this? But I do think there's something to a hierarchyBrian Washburn: 00:26:03of learning objectives. And I know that there is there's aBrian Washburn: 00:26:06number of conversations, if you take a look at LinkedIn orBrian Washburn: 00:26:08Twitter, in the really super nerdy l&d space, people getBrian Washburn: 00:26:13really upset about Bloom's Taxonomy and some of the thingsBrian Washburn: 00:26:16but when you think of what somebody needs to be able to do,Brian Washburn: 00:26:21when that's the learning objectives, right, so what is itBrian Washburn: 00:26:24somebody needs to be able to do newer, differently, or better asBrian Washburn: 00:26:27a result of this training session, sometimes it'sBrian Washburn: 00:26:29awareness. And sometimes, you know, when I worked for an eyeBrian Washburn: 00:26:33bank, so cornea transplants, we would train nurses on theBrian Washburn: 00:26:39procedures or the steps they would need to do in order toBrian Washburn: 00:26:42make sure that the corneas were preserved until somebody could,Brian Washburn: 00:26:46could arrive and recover the corneas. And so for thatBrian Washburn: 00:26:50training, the nurses basically needed to list three steps, andBrian Washburn: 00:26:53we had an acronym for it. So we do a training and say, you know,Brian Washburn: 00:26:56expose people, these are the three steps, we would also leaveBrian Washburn: 00:26:59behind a job aid, you know, a little wallet size card thatBrian Washburn: 00:27:03people could take with them that said, these are the three stepsBrian Washburn: 00:27:06and that was it, right? So that's, they need to be aware ofBrian Washburn: 00:27:09the steps. And then if they needed to actually do the steps,Brian Washburn: 00:27:12they had a job aid to take care of it. However, if the learningBrian Washburn: 00:27:16objective goes beyond that, and somebody actually needs to beBrian Washburn: 00:27:18able to perform something, right, they need to be able toBrian Washburn: 00:27:22coach, they need to be able to coach their employees, or theyBrian Washburn: 00:27:25need to be able to engage people in sales conversations. It's oneBrian Washburn: 00:27:29thing to expose people to that through an elearning or throughBrian Washburn: 00:27:32an instructor led class. But it's another thing to followBrian Washburn: 00:27:36that up, make sure that that behavior is changed, and how doBrian Washburn: 00:27:39we do that? So having things like checklists for supervisorsBrian Washburn: 00:27:42to observe afterwards, or, you know, a follow up email toBrian Washburn: 00:27:47people that says, hey, you know, just reminding you that we wentBrian Washburn: 00:27:53through this course. And these are three steps to the sales orBrian Washburn: 00:27:55whatever it might be, to figure out what's the best way toBrian Washburn: 00:27:59follow up, follow this up a week, a month down the road,Brian Washburn: 00:28:02because people do forget what it is that they learned, when theyBrian Washburn: 00:28:06end that, that learning experience. And until people canBrian Washburn: 00:28:11practice it enough, until people get feedback until people youBrian Washburn: 00:28:14know, kind of do it enough to change that behavior, then thatBrian Washburn: 00:28:19learning objective isn't accomplished. And so when weBrian Washburn: 00:28:22think of learning objectives, and truly what the ultimateBrian Washburn: 00:28:24success of a session or training initiative might be, then I doBrian Washburn: 00:28:30think that we need to figure out, you know, at what level doBrian Washburn: 00:28:32people need to master this. And if they need to really have aBrian Washburn: 00:28:35deep mastery of A and B and change their behavior, thereBrian Washburn: 00:28:39needs to be more elements to that learning experience. IfBrian Washburn: 00:28:42it's simply awareness, and then knowing where to findBrian Washburn: 00:28:45information. You know, maybe, maybe you don't need to blendBrian Washburn: 00:28:48it, maybe you don't need the hybrid approach. Maybe one thingBrian Washburn: 00:28:51is enough.Tom Moriarty: 00:28:51I think that's great. I think that's a veryTom Moriarty: 00:28:53specific, actionable takeaway. And I love the idea of, youTom Moriarty: 00:28:56know, I think everyone, like you said, you know, depending onTom Moriarty: 00:28:59where you spend your time on LinkedIn or not, you know, thereTom Moriarty: 00:29:03might be different opinions on things. But I, you know, for meTom Moriarty: 00:29:06for being a leader of an organization who, who genuinelyTom Moriarty: 00:29:10wants to develop everybody in my team all the time, and just getTom Moriarty: 00:29:14them from where they are to 5% better. Like, that's a veryTom Moriarty: 00:29:18simple framework, right? Like, is it an awareness to a skill toTom Moriarty: 00:29:22an activity? Or is it actually performing the function if thoseTom Moriarty: 00:29:26things, you know, depending on what that is, you know, maybeTom Moriarty: 00:29:29you need to change the delivery method to make sure that you'reTom Moriarty: 00:29:32meeting that it's, I'll share a story I use something similar. ITom Moriarty: 00:29:35had an old boss, who was a fantastic sales leader and salesTom Moriarty: 00:29:39professional, but he always talked about this, a specificTom Moriarty: 00:29:43competency model where you would move from unconsciouslyTom Moriarty: 00:29:46incompetent to consciously incompetent to consciouslyTom Moriarty: 00:29:49competent, to unconsciously competent, and I use that allTom Moriarty: 00:29:53the time. Honestly, it's like one of the best little acronymsTom Moriarty: 00:29:56or models and my leaders and I talk about out are people andTom Moriarty: 00:30:01where they are uncertain skills in that context, because inTom Moriarty: 00:30:05practical terms, what you need to do to move somebody fromTom Moriarty: 00:30:08unconsciously incompetent, meaning I don't even know that ITom Moriarty: 00:30:11don't know, to the next step is completely different than what ITom Moriarty: 00:30:14need to do to take somebody from consciously competent toTom Moriarty: 00:30:18unconsciously competent, where they can just do it in theirTom Moriarty: 00:30:21sleep without thinking. And those are completely differentTom Moriarty: 00:30:23parts of a skill development and learning journey, at least inTom Moriarty: 00:30:28the context of, you know, a salesperson or revenue owner.Tom Moriarty: 00:30:33And I think that you're, you're a little hierarchy there, youTom Moriarty: 00:30:36know, that resonates a lot with me. I agree. That's a greatTom Moriarty: 00:30:39takeaway.Brian Washburn: 00:30:40Yeah, it's been a while since I've thought ofBrian Washburn: 00:30:42that model. And and I was exposed to that model when I wasBrian Washburn: 00:30:44going to grad school and organizational development andBrian Washburn: 00:30:46the idea of moving from unconscious incompetence toBrian Washburn: 00:30:49unconscious competence. You know, it's a journey. And do youBrian Washburn: 00:30:54need to be unconsciously competent about everything? AndBrian Washburn: 00:30:59sometimes the answer is, yes, like pilots, yes. I want them toBrian Washburn: 00:31:02be unconsciously competent, about everything. But you know,Brian Washburn: 00:31:09is, you know, for a salesperson or for, you know, anBrian Washburn: 00:31:13administrative assistant or for a department head, you know,Brian Washburn: 00:31:17what is it that they need to be able to do day to day withoutBrian Washburn: 00:31:21thinking? And what is it that you need to be aware of and knowBrian Washburn: 00:31:24where to find, you know, some some resources when they whenBrian Washburn: 00:31:27they when a situation comes up?Tom Moriarty: 00:31:30Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I thinkTom Moriarty: 00:31:32there's some really, really great takeaways there. There.Tom Moriarty: 00:31:35Brian, there's some that I wrote down, I put like a bunch of redTom Moriarty: 00:31:37stars against and I wanted to get back to we said early in theTom Moriarty: 00:31:40conversation, you know, you mentioned at one point, thatTom Moriarty: 00:31:44there are tools, I think, during the budget conversation, thatTom Moriarty: 00:31:48there are tools that you can use to make every virtual experienceTom Moriarty: 00:31:51engaging. And we kept going on that conversation. But I'd likeTom Moriarty: 00:31:55to go back to that, because I think that like the concept ofTom Moriarty: 00:31:58hybrid learning. We've defined it very clearly, it's a mix ofTom Moriarty: 00:32:02delivery methods. I think a lot of you in the audience in theTom Moriarty: 00:32:07last 48 months, that's meant, I've got to add more zoom to myTom Moriarty: 00:32:11life, and there's got to be more virtual stuff. So I'd love toTom Moriarty: 00:32:13give the team out in the audience,some takeaways about,Tom Moriarty: 00:32:16you know, what are those tools that they can use to make everyTom Moriarty: 00:32:19virtual experience as engaging as possible?Brian Washburn: 00:32:22Yeah, and I'll preface this by saying there areBrian Washburn: 00:32:25some people in the field that are way more knowledgeable thanBrian Washburn: 00:32:29I am, when it comes to virtual, you know, Kassy LaBorie comes toBrian Washburn: 00:32:32mind, Cindy Huggett. And they have, they've literally writtenBrian Washburn: 00:32:35books about this. And so I'll try to give a quick answer toBrian Washburn: 00:32:38this. When it comes to virtual engagement. I think one of theBrian Washburn: 00:32:42key rules of thumb is to get people interacting and engagingBrian Washburn: 00:32:50as early as possible and starting to explore any sort ofBrian Washburn: 00:32:54tools that we're going to be able to, we're going to beBrian Washburn: 00:32:57using, from the get go. And so if we're going to be usingBrian Washburn: 00:33:01polling, if we're going to be using Breakout Rooms, if we'reBrian Washburn: 00:33:03going to be using on screen annotation, try to build thatBrian Washburn: 00:33:07into any of the introduction activities that we're doing. SoBrian Washburn: 00:33:11that sort of tone is set. And people are familiar with it withBrian Washburn: 00:33:15the technologies and the features that we'll be using inBrian Washburn: 00:33:19low stakes conversations first, because if somebody doesn'tBrian Washburn: 00:33:23really know how to, you know, kind of get into breakout roomBrian Washburn: 00:33:27or write on the screen, it's better to figure that out whenBrian Washburn: 00:33:31you're asking people to put a little star on the map of theBrian Washburn: 00:33:35country where they're calling in from, as opposed to later in theBrian Washburn: 00:33:39session when you only have a minute or two for an activityBrian Washburn: 00:33:43and people are like Well, where's the, you know, where'sBrian Washburn: 00:33:45the onscreen annotation?" Right, so being able to, so that's oneBrian Washburn: 00:33:49of the really important first rules of thumb is if you'reBrian Washburn: 00:33:53going to be using some engagement strategies later on,Brian Washburn: 00:33:55try to introduce those as early as possible. The other thingBrian Washburn: 00:33:59that I think is really important is that different platformsBrian Washburn: 00:34:03offer different things. So you have the polling feature, youBrian Washburn: 00:34:05have the onscreen annotation, you have the breakout rooms,Brian Washburn: 00:34:09those are a lot of times that you have the chat, right, soBrian Washburn: 00:34:11those are oftentimes, you know, for the most common ways thatBrian Washburn: 00:34:14people can interact and engage in a virtual setting. And thenBrian Washburn: 00:34:18there are some things that you can do outside of theBrian Washburn: 00:34:20environment. So you can play a game of Kahoot for example, orBrian Washburn: 00:34:25you can put other you know, there's there's mural is anotherBrian Washburn: 00:34:30technology where people can kind of use sticky notes in everybodyBrian Washburn: 00:34:35and the group can start to like you would in person, sometimesBrian Washburn: 00:34:40you have people write things down and sticky notes and bringBrian Washburn: 00:34:42them up to the flip chart and move things around. You can doBrian Washburn: 00:34:45that virtually as well. And so I think that it's also reallyBrian Washburn: 00:34:49helpful for people to think outside of the platform when itBrian Washburn: 00:34:53comes to engagement strategies because in the spirit and... andBrian Washburn: 00:34:57take a look at what K 12 teachers have done over the pastBrian Washburn: 00:35:01two years, because they were masters at figuring out what areBrian Washburn: 00:35:06some different technologies that I can have my students who areBrian Washburn: 00:35:09second graders, doing in order to engage, pick it up quicklyBrian Washburn: 00:35:15and engage. And there's lots of other little tools out there,Brian Washburn: 00:35:19that K 12 teachers were using early on in the pandemic, that IBrian Washburn: 00:35:23think would really behoove those of us in corporate learning toBrian Washburn: 00:35:27really take a page out of their book. All that said, obviously,Brian Washburn: 00:35:31it also goes back to the learning objectives, right? SoBrian Washburn: 00:35:34what is it the people should be able to do, and then making sureBrian Washburn: 00:35:38that you're selecting the right activities in order to getBrian Washburn: 00:35:41people to engage, but don't don't say that just because it'sBrian Washburn: 00:35:45virtual, and you don't have physically people in front ofBrian Washburn: 00:35:47you that you can rely on PowerPoint to go through an hourBrian Washburn: 00:35:50session, because that's, that's not the case. Right? It's, it'sBrian Washburn: 00:35:54boring, you know, in person, it's gonna be boring virtuallyBrian Washburn: 00:35:57as well.Tom Moriarty: 00:35:58I really love the idea of takeaways to go, go pollTom Moriarty: 00:36:03K through 12 teacher that can that you know, that experiences,Tom Moriarty: 00:36:07that's another great outside resource that our corporateTom Moriarty: 00:36:10learning and development professionals here in theTom Moriarty: 00:36:13audience can really take away, because that's a great point,Tom Moriarty: 00:36:16right at the end of the day that the audience they need to engageTom Moriarty: 00:36:18with, has a completely different context. So there can be someTom Moriarty: 00:36:21really cool tools and resources they can find there. Brian, ITom Moriarty: 00:36:24have to thank you again, this has been fantastic. Before weTom Moriarty: 00:36:27wrap, you know, if there's any way that the audience wants toTom Moriarty: 00:36:30continue to hear about what you're doing, what Endurance isTom Moriarty: 00:36:33doing, where can they find you?Brian Washburn: 00:36:35Yeah, so there's a couple of things, I'll put outBrian Washburn: 00:36:37a shameless plug for a website that we have, it's free forBrian Washburn: 00:36:39people to go to it's called 51 elements of learning.com. So ifBrian Washburn: 00:36:40you want to think of, you know, what could be the array of, ofBrian Washburn: 00:36:42learning elements that we could bring into a hybrid program,Brian Washburn: 00:36:54then that is a kind of, it's an interactive website that has aBrian Washburn: 00:36:58periodic table, you click on the different elements and explainsBrian Washburn: 00:37:00more about each of the elements. And what which other elementsBrian Washburn: 00:37:04you might want to combine your elements with. So that's oneBrian Washburn: 00:37:07kind of cool way for people to think through a hybrid learningBrian Washburn: 00:37:11approach. And then if people want to get in touch with me,Brian Washburn: 00:37:13they can always drop me an email at Brian at enduranceBrian Washburn: 00:37:16training.com I'm always happy to connect with people on LinkedInBrian Washburn: 00:37:20too and have virtual coffee. And so if you if you are listeningBrian Washburn: 00:37:24to this, you decide, oh, I want to connect with Brian WashburnBrian Washburn: 00:37:27at Endurance Learning, go on LinkedIn, find me, connect withBrian Washburn: 00:37:32me, but don't just add the connection. drop me a noteBrian Washburn: 00:37:35saying, Hey, I heard you on the podcast, and it'd be fun to grabBrian Washburn: 00:37:37virtual coffee sometime. And I'd love to chat.Tom Moriarty: 00:37:40That's great. Thank you, Brian, I reallyTom Moriarty: 00:37:41appreciate you share the website to that's a great resource.Tom Moriarty: 00:37:44We'll we'll grab a link to that and leave that in the show notesTom Moriarty: 00:37:46so that the audience here can grab that and go engage. That'sTom Moriarty: 00:37:50a... That's an awesome resource. Thank you again, Brian. This hasTom Moriarty: 00:37:54been a great conversation. I know there's a ton of actionableTom Moriarty: 00:37:56takeaways that I have for the for the trainingTom Moriarty: 00:37:58responsibilities I have here for my teams. And I know ourTom Moriarty: 00:38:02audience will really appreciate this as well. So thank you soTom Moriarty: 00:38:04much for your time.Brian Washburn: 00:38:05Thanks for having me.Tom Moriarty: 00:38:06The Secret Society of Success is hosted by Mimeo,Tom Moriarty: 00:38:09the better way to print. Check out our sister podcast, Talk ofTom Moriarty: 00:38:12the Trade, for tips and tricks for sales and marketing leaders.Tom Moriarty: 00:38:15Visit www.mimeo.com for more information