How Do Instructional Designers Use Learner Personas?

To find out how instructional designers think about learner personas, we turn to Betty Dannewitz, host of the ifyouaskbetty podcast and Learning Solutions Architect at The Ken Blanchard Companies. Betty shares her experience building personas and why she thinks they are worth the extra work. Transcript[00:00] Tom Moriarty: Welcome. You made it to the Secret […]

To find out how instructional designers think about learner personas, we turn to Betty Dannewitz, host of the ifyouaskbetty podcast and Learning Solutions Architect at The Ken Blanchard Companies. Betty shares her experience building personas and why she thinks they are worth the extra work.

Transcript

[00:00] Tom Moriarty: Welcome. You made it to the Secret Society of Success. In this not-so-secret podcast, we interview L&D changemakers about how they approach the evolving corporate environment and cultivate their own careers. From their stories, we hope you find lessons and inspirations to make yourself, your people, and your organization successful. For our second season, we polled you, our listeners, to find out what you wanted to hear about. You chose learner personas. So now we're on a mission to find out from experts the answers to your questions, like what is a learner persona? How do you create an effective persona? And most importantly, why are personas a strategic investment for L&D teams? In this episode, industry expert Betty Dannewitz from the Ken Blanchard Companies and the IfYouAskBetty podcast joins us to talk about Learner Personas from an instructional design perspective. I love hearing what she has to say about why building personas is worth the extra work that has to go on upfront. Let's jump into the conversations. You can hear what I'm talking about. Betty, before we get started and jump into our topic of Learner Personas, why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and your background.

[01:22] Betty Dannewitz: Sure. Betty Dannewitz I have been in learning and development for over 18 years. Leave it at that. My career is officially an adult, and once we hit 21, we should definitely have a party. Currently, I work for the Ken Blanchard Companies, and I'm a solutions architect with them. And I also I'm also known often as IfYouAskBetty and speak at a lot of conference events around XR. So that'd be AR, MR, VR, and then also podcasting and sometimes even Imposter Syndrome. So I have a variety of things in which I like to play with.

[01:56] Tom Moriarty: Awesome. Well, thank you for the intro, Betty. And I like the idea of the party for the 21st anniversary of your career.

[02:02] Betty Dannewitz: I know that you're joining.

[02:03] Tom Moriarty: I love a good party. Be more than happy to join.

[02:07] Betty Dannewitz: There is likely to be karaoke involved, so start pick not your song now.

[02:13] Tom Moriarty: Okay. Well, so for today's discussion and for this season, the focus is really diving into the topic of Learner Personas. So we'd love to hear, given your vast experience in the learning and development industry, where I think it makes sense to start the discussion is really understanding what are some of the first learner personas that you constructed and defined? Could you kind of share a story and the context of some of the first ones?

[02:39] Betty Dannewitz: Yeah, some of the first ones were for a client. Right. So they kind of worked like this. I had sort of a template where I would pick a picture that might represent who it is, who I'm trying to come up with, talk about what are their motivations behind why they work, motivations to learn. So what are the ways that they prefer to learn? And what's fun about a persona is, you get to kind of create a character in your head that is no doubt based on other people that you know. It's always that way. If you say it's not, the first person you're aligned to is yourself because that's totally it. If we were to construct a persona today, we might say something like, one of the listeners for this podcast is Jerry Smith. And Jerry is a young dude. He's been learning maybe, I don't know, maybe five years. He's got just enough to know that he knows something, but he doesn't really know that much. He's connected to a few people. He likes to wear his hat backwards. He's got big black glasses. He's always wearing graphic T shirts, never fully shaven. Not that he looks at anything at all like you, Thomas. But anyways, it's always based on somebody that you know, so starting that way and then also defining other things, like what is maybe their disc workplace style or if you know other type of personality indicators well enough. I'm incredibly well versed, probably too much in disc. So disc is typically my go to that helps understand personality and workplace styles, those types of things, and then always coming up with what is it that they want to get out of whatever experience it is you're about to create. Because that's where the definite connection comes. Because if you create a learner persona that does not connect at all to what you're trying to do, they shouldn't be the persona because they're not the right learner for you. That's sort of how I started and continue to do personas. I will tell you my favorite one I've done so far is for Ken Blanchard. We created a persona that is Sherry. And Sherry is the first time manager. We have a Building Trust virtual reality simulation. And so in the simulation, you as the user helps sort of coach Sherry in understanding what it is that she needs to do to build trust with her team or restore trust with her team. So Sherry is every bad manager you've ever had, like, all the things that they've done that's Sherry. And so it was really fun to build that right, super fun to build the persona that embodies all the bad habits of all the bad Managers that I've ever had or that you've ever had. And it's funny because as I was sort of writing who Sherry is and what motivates her and how she likes to learn and that type of stuff, I could see her in my mind. I was like, I know exactly what she looks like and this is what she looks like. This is how she sits. This is what her face looks like all the time. And then we were able to find something that matched that. Sherry is probably, maybe she's not the first, but definitely the most memorable and fun persona ever got to create.

[06:18] Tom Moriarty: That's a great story. I really appreciate the example. I think there's a lot of stuff in there that I think is worth unpacking. One thing you said earlier that I think is really interesting and obviously true as it relates to any persona that you're going to create, was the fact that you use the relationships to people that you know that this persona might represent to further inform the key aspects of the persona, what that person is like. It allows you to sort of relate to the persona more, therefore better understanding what they want motivations. Because you called that out as a really important I think that was the first thing you said. What was their work motivation? What's the learning motivation? Right? So it's understanding. I'd be curious to unpack that a little more, because I would imagine that there is both a significant value in understanding that that's the case and using it to your advantage when building a persona. I would also imagine there could be some risks associated with that as well. Could you talk about how to sort of manage that reality?

[07:36] Betty Dannewitz: Yeah, some of the risks. Okay, let me back up. Let me say the advantages first. The advantages of doing it that way is that the ideas will come to you quickly, right? Because you know these people, you've met these people, you've interacted with them, so there's very little research that has to be done. But the risks come in things like stereotyping generalizing and otherwise ostracizing people, because you're choosing characteristics that while you might think they represent a person like this, they're not necessarily really representative. They're only representative of a subset of people that you've known and met and experienced and put in there. So it's always a good place to start. I would definitely recommend one of the ways to mitigate that risk is to collaborate with others. So maybe you build a persona and then you bring other people in different voices from your organization inside your department or work group, and even outside of it, maybe even, if possible, if you can do it without any concerns for proprietary issues, if you can share it with people outside of your organization, do you get their thoughts? Because sometimes we get so zoned in and excited about an idea or a persona that we're building that we miss all the red flags because we're too busy giggling about it. I showed Sherry to multiple people, and we did change a couple of tiny things, right? In my initial version of Sherry, she used curse words at work because why wouldn't she?

[09:18] Tom Moriarty: Why not?

[09:18] Betty Dannewitz: Why wouldn't she? And they were like, well, maybe we can change that just a little bit, because it could be a distracting part of her personality that doesn't add to the story. And I was like, okay, fine. But sometimes we get sort of overly excited about what we're creating and who we're coming up with. And so it's good to bounce that idea off Other Folks.

[09:43] Tom Moriarty: Yeah, I love that. I think the idea of, like you said, the speed at which it will help you to create and build out the persona is obviously immensely valuable. Right. Especially learning and development professional. Right. Typically under-resourced, maybe not getting the amount of time or the size of team that you would want to really, truly build that out. So that speed is immensely valuable as a takeaway. But I think you can balance that, balance the risks of biases things of that nature by just getting other people's opinion. Right. Ultimately bringing more people into the fold as you're building that out. I think those are really valuable takeaways for the audience. You use Sherry as your favorite and specifically when you share the example you talked about Sherry, the character, in a simulated training environment. So I'm curious how in context, I think that kind of is one answer to the question. But I'm curious in more general, how Learner personas kind of changed, how you approach actual instructional design, how you specifically deliver content to that persona, or with a persona, in the case of Sherry.

[10:58] Betty Dannewitz: Sure learner personas. I think their biggest function other than being fun. Also, let me just add it is important. It's important to me. Let me just add that when I first heard about the idea of Learner personas, I was like, that just sounds like work. Like, I know these people. I don't need to do this. And at the moment, in the job I was in, I was deeply steeped in who my audience was. So that may have been true. However, the way we work has progressed. And you don't necessarily just own an audience anymore. You work with so many other different groups. Like a persona I found when I finally sat down and did one was oh. This helps me communicate what I know in my head and in my heart about these people to everybody else that's in the project group. So maybe it's not such a bad idea to do that. So anyways, just in case anybody else is on the fence and thinking, I don't want to do that, to just work. It is more work, but it's very helpful for everyone in the project team. Okay. So back to the question. And that kind of answered it. Actually wasn't even trying to but it really helps you to think differently about how you're going to design. So I think it's very easy, especially in corporate learning, to get into the groove of oh, here's comes a request. It's a certain set of content. They need it delivered by such and such date. Let's just create an elearning and we'll move on with our lives. Nobody wants another Elearning. Not one person ever said, Please make me another Elearning. I'm Waiting. That's not happened. So what's nice is over the last few years, people have been more apt to like well, maybe we could make a video. Or maybe we could do this. But when you create a persona, especially when you include how they like to learn, that makes you think differently about what you could design. So, for example, Sherry likes podcasts. Why wouldn't she, right? And so because Sherry likes podcasts and Sherry is one of three personas that I'm working with, maybe a podcast is actually a good learning solution depending on the content that I have to deliver. And so it helps you think about different modalities. It helps you break out of the elearning cycle and also out of the face to face instructor led, because not everything needs to be instructor led. In fact, I would argue most things don't need to be instructor led and half your audience just hung up because they're facilitators. So sorry about that. But yeah, I just think that it helps open your eyes when you think about the people you're designing for. It changes the way that you design.

[13:54] Tom Moriarty: I like that it might be more work, but likely could be an extra step that's different than your normal process, right? Like you said, request deliverable, get something done by a certain date, and that process might not be, okay, wait, evaluation of audience, build persona, then build, deliverable bio next. Now we're adding an extra step here. Why are we going to do that? But you mentioned it's more work but helpful. The way I kind of internalize that in something that I always think about is sometimes the idea of slowing down the speed up. Sometimes that's really important and being really clear on your target and your audience is, as you said, as you later mentioned, can really drive the delivery method. And at the end of the day, what everyone is trying to do in any profession, but specifically learning profession, is we're trying to do a good job. And I think the definition of what a good job often is learning that you delivered that had the intended impact. And the best way to get the right impact is to meet your audience where they want to be met, not in the way that's easiest for you to get the product out the door.

[15:12] Betty Dannewitz: Right.

[15:13] Tom Moriarty: It's not just ship product, it's ship quality. A lot of our audience is delivering learning services as a third party for an organization. So I'd like to dig into that topic even more specifically. So how do you create a learner persona as Ken Blanchard engaging with another company when maybe you don't have that audience right there at your fingertips?

[15:36] Betty Dannewitz: Right.

[15:37] Tom Moriarty: You don't inherently know that because you're not tied to them, like you mentioned before. What are some of the steps you start to take to successfully create that when maybe you're not tied at the hip with that audience every day?

[15:47] Betty Dannewitz: Sure, my first thoughts are, okay, I might not work in this industry, but I am a human consumer and have probably interacted with this industry or with people who work in this industry. So I stop and think about that. First of all, so you're always coming back to who do you already know? So who do I already know that works for let's just say power and gas. Right. So utilities companies. So who do I know? Because I've never worked in that industry, but I've worked with clients that are in that industry. So who do I know that does that? Okay. And did they actually work in the jobs that I'm writing for? If they didn't, but they were adjacent, I might make a phone call, say, hey, I'm trying to design for people that you may have worked with before. This is what I would think they're like. Can you tell me more? Tapping into those connections that you already have is one thing. Another thing is I research and look at job descriptions, right? So I will go out to that particular company's website, go to careers, and look for job descriptions. If for some reason there aren't any, I will ask my client to send me some job descriptions of these folks. A lot of times they're already out there, so I don't have to ask them. And then thirdly, if I really still feel like I don't have a handle on it, I'll set up interviews. So I'll ask the client to provide me with a handful of folks that I can interview to just get them to tell me a little bit about themselves and to tell me about their job and the work that they do and what motivates them. So the same kind of questions that would be in a persona and use them as sort of a poster child, if you will, for that. So it's really about research, starting with who do you already know? What can I find publicly? And then if I need to, which I don't always have to, but if I need to, then interviewing folks that are actually part of the work group that I'm trying to write for.

[17:54] Tom Moriarty: That's great. When you're researching job descriptions, that's a great suggestion. I think the audience could maybe even overlook that. I can understand when you pick up the phone and you call someone in your network and you get the opportunity to interview some of the questions that you're going to ask, that will help you reveal things like focus and motivation and what they're trying to accomplish. What are you gleaning from a job description that allows you to better inform what that persona looks like?

[18:24] Betty Dannewitz: Sure. So if I look at a job description, I'm looking at what kind of tasks is it asking them to do? And then I look deeper, like, what are the skills that are required to be able to do this job really well? Because I don't know if you've ever served job descriptions. I find it to be one of the best things to read on the Internet. It just tells me a lot about the industry if I read the job descriptions and what people are looking for. So a lot of jobs don't specifically say we need you to have the skills to manage projects, but if you read the tasks, you cannot do those if you do not know how to project, manage. It's like reading between the lines to see what are the things they really need to be able to do. Building relationships is almost never listed in a job description, but if you read the tasks, if you don't build relationships, you can't do any of that. So it's looking for those underlying skills that maybe aren't really apparent and explicit, but implicit and implied.

[19:27] Tom Moriarty: I love that. So you're working with Company XYZ in this case. The example you shared might be in the power industry, oil, gas or something of that nature. So you've talked to your network, maybe you've worked in the past, you put on your consumer hat, you looked at a couple of job descriptions, maybe even you got an interview or two. You're building your research. What are you doing next? What are your next steps in terms of rounding out this persona before you actually then start to use it to drive design?

[19:57] Betty Dannewitz: Sure. My next steps are using my imagination with all of the research that I've got to create a person or character in my mind that I think matches somebody who might be in this position and thinking not only professionally but personally. If we're talking about Jerry again, the things I did mention to you is that Jerry is a single dad and he's got twin girls age eleven that he's also juggling at home. That just changed your whole view of Jerry, right? The whole thing that everything you thought about Jerry before with the backward hat and everything totally changed your mind. Now he's got a backward attack because bro don't have time to brush his hair, probably hasn't showered in a week type of thing because he's got two girls in junior high. Middle school. Sorry, I'm old. I call junior high. So my point is you bring in the professional elements, but you have to add those personal elements as well. And you don't have to go super deep, but you need to go deep enough that it differentiates this person from the next person in this job. Because the only difference between the two are their motivations. You might as well just play to the whole room. But if the difference is their motivations and who they are and what they're dealing with outside of the workplace, that gives a whole new level of dynamic to what it is that you want it designed. The fact that Jerry is a single dad of two and always on the run, that pushes you more towards that podcast modality. Right. He doesn't have a lot of time, but when he does have time, he's always doing something else. So how can we get him something that will help him while he's doing something else? Whereas if, you know, if if Jerry's just a single dude and his favorite thing to do is watch Game of Thrones, watch Game of Thrones. It's a very different jerry's got lots of time, so a different modality might lend itself. So you see what I'm saying, how the rest of the back story can really help influence the design?

[22:10] Tom Moriarty: Yeah, I can't imagine delivering the same content to each of those cherries. They're definitely at different places. Let me ask you this. You mentioned that the persona isn't really going to address the whole audience.

[22:24] Betty Dannewitz: Right.

[22:24] Tom Moriarty: If we keep going on this example, you're working with an oil and gas company. You're building trading for this persona. You're starting to build Jerry, if you will. I can't imagine that all 300 employees that you're going to train fit Jerry. How do you decide if you're building Jerry or if you should be building Johnny? And then how does that influence your design? Do you build a persona for everybody?

[22:53] Betty Dannewitz: No, because then if you have 300 employees, we have 300 personas because everybody is different. But you do want to build enough. That gives you an idea of what the folks in this pool of potential users, candidates, participants, whatever we're calling it, that the folks in this pool of people. It's a good representation. So that's where working directly with your client or even your internal business units helps you because you're also going to want to take into account race background, socioeconomic background, sexual orientation. All of those things are going to become part of the persona. If you leave that stuff out, you may be leaving people out. So you can't get all of that in one. Not effectively. I usually do three to five, depending on the amount of audience and also on how many the client wants to see represented. If it's a small audience, three is enough. If the large audience, it's usually five. Any more than five and you're starting to duplicate. It gets to be a little bit more nuanced. So usually five is enough. Some do standard ten every time. It's just really what works for you and what works for your client or your internal customers. The next step is to sort of build it out and then really use my imagination to flesh it out and build who this person is. Find a picture that matches what you think that person might look like. Sometimes it's not a picture, sometimes it's an illustration. And that's okay. Just again, like rules of all good design. If you're going to use illustrations, make them all illustrations. Like, we don't live in a world where I'm a human and you're a cartoon, so let's not make personas that way. Like, either we're all cartoons or all humans. You're picking up what I'm putting out.

[25:00] Tom Moriarty: I’m totally picking it up.

[25:01] Betty Dannewitz: So then take it out to that group of folks that say, hey, check me on this. Anything you would add, anything you would change. Do you know this person? And if they say, I totally know this person, then you've hit the nail on the head. And then once you've sort of got that initial round of feedback internally or with your board of directors, quote, unquote, then take it to the client. Make sure the client agrees. The customer agrees that this persona represents their workforce. Just a quick story. I had a group that came to me, and I'm trying to remember I think it was a gas company, and they wanted personas. I'm like, sure. So I whipped out three or four I can't remember it's, like three or four of them. And I was like, okay, let's go through the and so I sort of went through and sort of told the story of each persona. And at the end, I would be like, does that sound like somebody that might work for your company? And they were like, yeah. I'm like, okay, cool. And so then I went to the next one, and I'm like, does that sound like somebody that might work for you in this position? Yeah. And they were like, how do you know that? And so I explained to them what I've told you. This is what I did. I thought about the people I know. I've read the job descriptions. I don't think I had to do interviews at this point. And they were like, wow. They were shocked that I, as a complete outsider, could understand their workforce and their organization, because I just took the time to think about who might these humans be that work for them? And it made a huge difference in the impact of the project. It built my credibility as an instructional designer. Like, I had instant credibility because I knew and understood their workforce, and I could show them that. And with that, they were like, okay, Betty, we trust you. Since you know who we're talking to, we know you're going to build up something great.

[26:53] Tom Moriarty: I love that story. I think that's a great example, right? And it illustrates, really, some of those key steps, right? Which is the way that I took it is you get all your components, and then you build the persona. The persona is a description, but it's also an image, an illustration, a caricature, so that there is a visual component, not just the written component. And like you said, that's important. Not just to make sure that you're in agreement that we're on the right track, but that credibility is valuable. Right? At the end of the day, you guys are going to be as a third party, you're being compensated for delivering training. There's an expected outcome. That credibility is a huge, important part of the process, not just to make sure we're on the same page, but gain that credibility that they understand that you understand. Right, that's great. So then from there then, I'd imagine you go into the design. So just to really drive the point home, let's say we're in the example, you've got five personas, you've got a program, you're delivering the program to an audience of 300 or 400, whatever, hundreds of people. You build that down to five personas. What does the design or delivery of that program look like in the context that you have five distinct personas trying to get learning outcome?

[28:20] Betty Dannewitz: The design then includes typically multiple modalities that will appeal in the best way to everyone. So it may include some podcasts, but there's also videos. So we know that we can't design one thing like six times. I mean, we can I don't want to do that. Do you want to do that? It sounds horrible, but what we can do is take into account, as we build a journey for people to go on, what are the different preferred modalities, including things like podcast? Are there folks in this group that would really appreciate some augmented reality? They would really like to pull out their mobile phone and be able to engage and interact in that way with the content that they're learning. So it really informs that. And so you use that to sort of create a beautiful blended solution that will have at least one or two elements that appeal to everybody is a.

[29:22] Tom Moriarty: Typical, I would imagine, probably case by case. But is it typical that you'll have each of the five personas go through every bit of that blended content? Or is there also a scenario where you might have Jerry go through one experience that's slightly different than the experience that John goes through?

[29:43] Betty Dannewitz: Honestly, the answer is sometimes, but mostly no. And that's not really an answer, so let me give you more words. Sometimes there is a reason for an experience to be different. Usually that has to do with level within the organization. So it's not unusual that we might create a learning journey for mid-level managers and create a very high level version of the same for executives, so that executives know and understand what their folks have gone through, but don't necessarily go through the entire learning journey. So in that case, then, yes, sometimes there's a little bit different version. Unfortunately, sometimes with accessibility there's a need to create a secondary way to experience it. So that's where videos with captions come in and transcripts, podcasts with transcripts, things like that, sometimes there's that, but often those are built in a design so that it covers those areas so that folks can turn on captions or turn them off. I don't know about you, I don't physically require them, but I prefer them. Captions actually help me focus better and a lot of times if there's background noise, I have a hard time isolating. I don't really necessarily have a hearing problem. I don't require hearing AIDS, but captions help me. Focus and actually hear what's happening versus everything else that's happening around me. That's just one example. Most of the time, no, but sometimes there are those, like, little offshoots, those personas help inform that, but they don't necessarily influence the design in that way. We wouldn't necessarily only design one way because of this. Rather, we would design and create off ramps for folks that need to consume it in a different way.

[31:40] Tom Moriarty: Yeah, so it sounds like it's not really a different design, it's just different tracks. And those tracks are likely influenced by things like level in the organization or accessibility, I guess, for lack of a better term, practical reasons why the track would be different. And then when you're using the personas to drive design, it's about using that tool to make sure, hey, as I've designed this full experience, have I created something that allows each of these personas to feel engaged with and met where they are, even if that's different than where they're exactly? Yeah. Great. I guess the last question I'll leave you with, and then we can wrap up here. People love stories, just like personas help. Are there any horror stories? And what were the outcomes? Sometimes it helps people take away a lesson. Clear.

[32:39] Betty Dannewitz: I don't have a real specific story for you. I know it might be a little disappointing, but I can tell you that in the past, before personas were a thing in learning, we would sit in a meeting, a project meeting, as we're building a design or whatever, and we would say, okay, this is what it needs to do, and this is what we're going to do. And someone speak and say, I don't know, I've been in this role before, and that would not be very it would not work for me. And so we would have this conversation where this was my experience, this was my experience, but this was my experience, and somebody had to make a decision. And nobody ever wrote down their experiences. Nobody ever created something that said, this is who we're speaking to. We just went off what we heard and what we could remember, which, I don't know about you, but I can't remember my first call today. So we relied on that, and then we relied on that person that was in that meeting going back to the designer and translating that and telling them that, and then the designer who wasn't a part of that meeting. I'm talking about like 10-12 years ago. This is how we operated, trying to make sense of it based on what that person so it's like a game of telephone, right? By the time you got to the final, they'd go to do it, and that same person is saying, okay, but like I said, like three months ago, this wouldn't work for me if I was still in this role. The horror story is that you can lose your whole focus. You can lose your whole audience, because the way that you designed or what you're delivering is not what they need and how they need it. And so persona sort of helps you, at the beginning, stay on the right track, and then at the end, when you go to those people that the persona is based on, if they say, yes, this is what I need when I needed it, then, you know, you hit the nail on the head at the beginning. If you get to them at the end and you say, this isn't it, you need to look back through the journey and say, either the persona was wrong to begin with, or it got changed and morphed along the way, and that's why you're not meeting the need the way that you should. So setting that up ahead of time and really thinking through it is going to help the whole process.

[34:57] Tom Moriarty: Yeah. To your point that creating that persona creates alignment through the whole process and clarity, it just gives you something to measure against that ultimately you can confirm that everybody who's working on design is on the same page, that this is the audience we're trying to serve. Your stakeholders are aligned with you. That, yes, that's who I'm trying to deliver against. And then your audience, at some point, you get the opportunity to do that, check with the audience and make sure that, hey, does this resonate with you? Is this persona that we're talking about someone that fits within your group, whatever that means? And then ultimately, as you go back and assess it's, that true north that you can go check yourself against. Hey, did we meet the objective here? Where did this go off the rails? So I love that. I think it's a great, probably really meaningful takeaway for the audience in terms of why is this extra work worth it. And it really ultimately makes everything in the whole process easier. It's going back to that idea of slowing down to speed up. Betty, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate your time. I've personally learned a lot, so it's fun for me. If the audience is looking to learn more about you or even the topic of learner personas, where can they find you? On the interwebs, if you will?

[36:20] Betty Dannewitz: On the interwebs? Yes. So on just about any social media platform, I'm at IfYouAskBetty, you can find me at ifyouaskbetty.com. You can also email me at [email protected]. So hopefully you're seeing a theme. I try to keep it simple that if you just type in IfYouAskBetty, all one word, all lower case, you're going to find me.

[36:42] Tom Moriarty: Great. Well, thanks so much. We really appreciate your time and have a wonderful rest of your day.

[36:48] Betty Dannewitz: Thanks. You too.

[36:49] Tom Moriarty: The Secret Society of Success is hosted by Mimeo, the better way to print. Check out our sister podcast, Talk of a Trade, for tips and tricks for sales and marketing leaders. Visit www.mimeo.com for more information.

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