Hybrid Learning: The Secret to Enabling Frontline Employees

JD Dillon, Chief Learning Architect at Axonify, defines hybrid learning with one word: equity. Tune in for his take on what hybrid learning is and how it is your secret to enabling (and keeping) frontline employees.

Transcript
Tom Moriarty:

Welcome, you made it to the Secret Society of

Tom Moriarty:

Success! In this not-so-secret podcast, we interview L&D

Tom Moriarty:

changemakers about how they approach the evolving corporate

Tom Moriarty:

environment and cultivate their own careers. We hope that from

Tom Moriarty:

their stories, you find lessons and inspirations to make

Tom Moriarty:

yourself, your people and your organization's more successful.

Tom Moriarty:

In this first season, we're exploring topic of hybrid

learning:

what that means at different organizations, why it

learning:

is increasingly important, and how L&D leaders can invest in

learning:

the right resources to best leverage it. In this episode,

learning:

we're focusing on delivering hybrid learning to frontline

learning:

employees to discuss what that means and how to do it well.

learning:

We've invited JD Dillon, Chief Learning Architect at Axonify to

learning:

join the conversation. Welcome, JD.

JD Dillon:

Hi, everybody.

Tom Moriarty:

JD, I know you've got vast experience in the L&D

Tom Moriarty:

world, but but for our listeners who might be get to know you for

Tom Moriarty:

the first time through this podcast, why don't you tell us a

Tom Moriarty:

little bit about your background?

JD Dillon:

Sure, I've been doing this for 20 odd years at this

JD Dillon:

point. By "this" I mean a blend of corporate operations

JD Dillon:

management and learning and development roles. So the bulk

JD Dillon:

of my career was really split between three different

JD Dillon:

organizations. So I spent 10 years with the Walt Disney

JD Dillon:

Company, which is why I live in Orlando, Florida, and I can hear

JD Dillon:

the Magic Kingdom. So if anyone wonders exactly how close am I

JD Dillon:

to Disney, I can, especially at night, I can hear the Magic

JD Dillon:

Kingdom. So I spent 10 years in various different types of roles

JD Dillon:

doing some wacky stuff at Disney, including workplace

JD Dillon:

learning and development roles, supporting cast members across

JD Dillon:

the resort, so about 65,000 ish people. And then I went to

JD Dillon:

Kaplan, the world's largest education company, where I was

JD Dillon:

director of learning technology and development. So I handled

JD Dillon:

our technology stack, our instructional design and content

JD Dillon:

practices and that type of stuff. And then about six ish

JD Dillon:

years ago, at this point, little over six years, I went across

JD Dillon:

the street to the provider side of the equation in learning and

JD Dillon:

development and joined Axonify. I was actually a customer of

JD Dillon:

Axonify. When I was at Kaplan, I was a customer number seven. So

JD Dillon:

I got to know the team early on, and then formally joined as

JD Dillon:

Chief Learning Architect a little over six years ago. And

JD Dillon:

now I basically spend a lot of my time in the learning and

JD Dillon:

performance space, talking to people understanding what

JD Dillon:

challenges they're facing, how they're overcoming those

JD Dillon:

challenges, and then connecting the dots to what we do at

JD Dillon:

Axonify to improve our technology, our content, our

JD Dillon:

services, and our and our messaging so we can help

JD Dillon:

especially frontline employees around the world in spaces like

JD Dillon:

retail, grocery manufacturing, contact centers, finance and

JD Dillon:

insurance do their best work every day. And that's why I do

JD Dillon:

what I do.

Tom Moriarty:

That's awesome. JD, thanks for the intro in the

Tom Moriarty:

background. And obviously, we've got an expert on our hands here.

Tom Moriarty:

So look, really looking forward to digging into the

Tom Moriarty:

conversation. Now that we've gotten to know you a little bit,

Tom Moriarty:

I want to for the sake of the audience level set, a couple of

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terms definitions from your perspective of some key terms

Tom Moriarty:

that we'll focus on throughout this conversation. So the first

Tom Moriarty:

one is hybrid learning. What does that mean to you?

JD Dillon:

To me, hybrid learning basically means equity,

JD Dillon:

it means that it doesn't matter where I do my job, I get the

JD Dillon:

support that I need to be able to do it as effectively as I

JD Dillon:

can. So in a large organization, that dynamic company that has a

JD Dillon:nce, and may have hundreds to:JD Dillon:

job roles and people doing their jobs in very different ways. So

JD Dillon:

one learning and development or HR function may be supporting

JD Dillon:

audiences that include people like me, who... I'm sitting at a

JD Dillon:

desk in front of an unnecessarily bright lighting

JD Dillon:

panel right now, they may have to support me working from home.

JD Dillon:

Simultaneously, maybe you support workers who are in on

JD Dillon:

the manufacturing line, you may support traveling salespeople,

JD Dillon:

you may support people who are frontline in a retail like

JD Dillon:

environment. And in a true hybrid learning scenario, if

JD Dillon:

we're really accomplishing what the term hybrid learning means,

JD Dillon:

it means all of those people get the right support. They don't

JD Dillon:

get the same support, right, because the same support does

JD Dillon:

not support all of those different people because they do

JD Dillon:

their jobs very differently. So in order to accomplish what we

JD Dillon:

talked about in terms of a hybrid learning strategy,

JD Dillon:

everyone in the organization needs to have equitable access

JD Dillon:

to learning and support resources so they can do their

JD Dillon:

best work, regardless of how that work is done.

Tom Moriarty:

That's great. Thank you. That was a very

Tom Moriarty:

thorough definition. I really like the term equity, and the

Tom Moriarty:

focus on the equitable distribution of learning

Tom Moriarty:

resources to all employees. I think that's a that's a really

Tom Moriarty:

good takeaway. I'm sure it's something we'll come back to

Tom Moriarty:

throughout the conversation. For our conversation based on your

Tom Moriarty:

focus Axonify and what you guys do, we're going to focus

Tom Moriarty:

specifically on delivering hybrid learning to a frontline

Tom Moriarty:

employee. So to make sure, I think, to very commonly used

Tom Moriarty:

term especially in the last 24 to 36 months, given everything

Tom Moriarty:

that's been going on, but could you quickly defined, what would

Tom Moriarty:

you see as a frontline employee?

JD Dillon:

The simplest way I tend to break it down is it's

JD Dillon:

the people who are directly interacting with the company's

JD Dillon:

customers and or products and services. So, from a consumer

JD Dillon:

perspective, it's the people you talk to. So when you go to the

JD Dillon:

grocery store, it's the it's the clerks that you interact with,

JD Dillon:

the person who slices your deli meat, the person who checks you

JD Dillon:

out at the cash register, the person who may be brings your

JD Dillon:

groceries to the curb, to fulfill your online order, it

JD Dillon:

may be the person who is dropping off the package that

JD Dillon:

you ordered online. And as a delivery driver, it may be the

JD Dillon:

person who packed that package in a logistics distribution

JD Dillon:

center or warehouse, or the person who was on the

JD Dillon:

manufacturing line putting that package together, or that

JD Dillon:

product together. So it's the people who are most directly

JD Dillon:

facing the customer side of the business. So the contact center

JD Dillon:

agent, the people who we interact with, and when you do

JD Dillon:

the math, roughly speaking, it represents about 80% of the

JD Dillon:

global workforce. Because when you think of large

JD Dillon:

organizations, like a retailer, as an example, a retailer may

JD Dillon:

have, let's say 600 locations, and they have, you know, maybe

JD Dillon:

1000 people in the corporate team, but they have 30,000

JD Dillon:

people on the frontline team, right? So it's it's the larger

JD Dillon:

chunk of the global workforce. And unfortunately, it's also the

JD Dillon:

most underserved part of the workforce when it comes to

JD Dillon:

learning and support practices.

Tom Moriarty:

Sounds like a challenge, but also maybe an

Tom Moriarty:

opportunity at the same time, right. That's great. Thank you.

Tom Moriarty:

I think that that that will level set the stage for

Tom Moriarty:

everybody. And I think that those definitions, you know,

Tom Moriarty:

where we're talking about the audience, in an organization

Tom Moriarty:

that specifically directly interacting with the customer or

Tom Moriarty:

the product, I think that's a great definition. And, you know,

Tom Moriarty:

for the context, this conversation, we're going to

Tom Moriarty:

focus about how to make sure there's equity in the learning

Tom Moriarty:

environment, so that those probably harder to reach

Tom Moriarty:

physically, people in the organization, and as you well

Tom Moriarty:

said, historically underserved people in the organization, how

Tom Moriarty:

are how are they getting the proper learning so that we do

Tom Moriarty:

have an equitable environment? So, you know, the world has had

Tom Moriarty:

a lot going on in the last 24 to 36 months. I'd love to

Tom Moriarty:

understand from your perspective, you've been working

Tom Moriarty:

in that, you know, serving the frontline workers through

Tom Moriarty:onify, for well, before March:Tom Moriarty:

changed in the last 24 months that with all that's been going

Tom Moriarty:

on in the world?

JD Dillon:

So I think the first piece is to recognize the fact

JD Dillon:

that businesses have realized the importance of the frontline

JD Dillon:

workforce. I don't think anyone would have ever said frontline

JD Dillon:

execution is not important to our business. But at the same

JD Dillon:

time, I don't believe most organizations meaningfully

JD Dillon:

prioritized that, which is why I said that they're often

JD Dillon:

underserved when it comes to not just learning and support

JD Dillon:

resources, but technology, broadly speaking, communication,

JD Dillon:

rewards and recognition, right. A lot of strategies that are

JD Dillon:

often applied in a corporate environment, or even in a remote

JD Dillon:

environment, often have not hit the frontline workforce. So the

JD Dillon:

fact that we relied on that team. So clearly, for the last

JD Dillon:

couple of years, we've always relied on them. But we noticed

JD Dillon:

the last couple of years, the consumers noticed and

JD Dillon:

organizations noticed. And then organizations noticed when those

JD Dillon:

people went missing. So right now everyone is having talent,

JD Dillon:

retention and acquisition problems. And that's especially

JD Dillon:

clear in frontline roles now that employees have options,

JD Dillon:

where before it didn't high turnover didn't necessarily

JD Dillon:

matter. Because there were people that were going to

JD Dillon:

backfill those positions in a lot of people's minds. Today,

JD Dillon:

finding those people is much more difficult because every

JD Dillon:

retailer and restaurant and logistics operation is not only

JD Dillon:

competing with Amazon, and not only competing against employers

JD Dillon:

who are all raising their wages and their benefits, which are

JD Dillon:

all positive things. But now they're also competing with

JD Dillon:

remote work opportunities. And the fact that it's easier than

JD Dillon:

ever for me to make a shift in direction when it comes to what

JD Dillon:

I may want to do instead of going back to work in the

JD Dillon:

restaurant that was closed for a while, I might not want to go

JD Dillon:

back to that because now, circumstances have afforded me a

JD Dillon:

decision. And I'm making a decision and taking

JD Dillon:

opportunities that previously were not available to me. And

JD Dillon:

then there's all you know, other considerations around number of

JD Dillon:

people who retired out of the frontline workforce. So overall,

JD Dillon:

I think organizations have now recognized how just challenging

JD Dillon:

it is to run your business, not only when you're short staffed

JD Dillon:

on the front line, but when you also don't have the right

JD Dillon:

capability, the right skills on the front line, because before

JD Dillon:

you may have been hiring in people who had some retail

JD Dillon:

background to backfill people who are returning out in those

JD Dillon:

environments. Now it's hard to find people who have that

JD Dillon:

experience who are coming through the door with certain

JD Dillon:

knowledge and skills So now we have to look at, well, how do we

JD Dillon:

not only close gaps within the operation so we can keep doors

JD Dillon:

open, keep our stores open, as long as you want to make sure

JD Dillon:

our specialty departments are open, make sure we're able to

JD Dillon:

provide a differentiated customer experience that brings

JD Dillon:

people back. So they don't always go online or they go

JD Dillon:

online to your channels. But how do we get people up to speed

JD Dillon:

quickly, and replace some of that knowledge that walked out

JD Dillon:

the door when turnover happened out of circumstance over the

JD Dillon:

last two years. So I think those those factors, and then the

JD Dillon:

nature of how that frontline work is done has also shifted

JD Dillon:

considerably. And everyone says things like, you know, the last

JD Dillon:

few years have actually accelerated this 10 plus years

JD Dillon:

when it comes to things like digital transformation, and that

JD Dillon:

type of stuff. And that's true on the frontline as well, where

JD Dillon:

I think the concept of digital transformation has lagged, you

JD Dillon:e us have were zooming before:JD Dillon:

now we are heavily zoomed. In frontline employees often didn't

JD Dillon:

see the same type of technology investment or didn't see the

JD Dillon:

same type of impact of their work. But now more employees

JD Dillon:

than ever carrying around handheld devices, because

JD Dillon:

they're fulfilling online orders and interacting directly with

JD Dillon:

customers via chat applications. More and more organizations

JD Dillon:

starting to recognize the potential for Bring Your Own

JD Dillon:

Device strategies. And a lot of that red tape is starting to

JD Dillon:

fall away that the technology environment around the frontline

JD Dillon:

workforce has shifted out of necessity, over the past couple

JD Dillon:

of years, which has accelerated that that teams need to be able

JD Dillon:

to have those types of skills be able to leverage technology in

JD Dillon:

their work in ways that were, I'd say more progressive on the

JD Dillon:

corporate side before the last few years. And now they've

JD Dillon:

caught up a bit when it comes to having a more digitally enabled

JD Dillon:

day to day work experience.

Tom Moriarty:

That's great. So what I'm hearing there, taking

Tom Moriarty:

notes, as the some of the key takeaways and changes, I think

Tom Moriarty:

first is that realization from the company perspective of the

Tom Moriarty:

true importance, right, a real level of detail about the

Tom Moriarty:

realization and the impact that the frontline has on each and

Tom Moriarty:

every organization that has a large frontline employees staff,

Tom Moriarty:

the second being the really competitive work environment,

Tom Moriarty:

right, a competitive labor environment at the end of the

Tom Moriarty:

day that that has created significant business challenges

Tom Moriarty:

for the businesses with a high amount of frontline employees.

Tom Moriarty:

And then the third being the technological changes for

Tom Moriarty:

frontline plays, and changes in either business strategy or

Tom Moriarty:

support for those employees as it relates to access for

Tom Moriarty:

technology. So obviously, those are three big pillars of change

Tom Moriarty:

there. I mean, how do those, you know, jumping into the learning

Tom Moriarty:

side of things, you know, how has those three pillars affected

Tom Moriarty:

how organizations go about delivering the skills and

Tom Moriarty:

knowledge that those people need to get up to speed quickly?

JD Dillon:

I'd say it has opened doors, because if you kind of

JD Dillon:

take two considerations in mind, and how do you overcome these

JD Dillon:

considerations, which is one, like we said, You've got to

JD Dillon:

onboard people quickly, in a way that is going to set them up for

JD Dillon:

success, make them feel confident their ability to do

JD Dillon:

this job, and also make them feel good in the decision that

JD Dillon:

they decided to work here. So if you are historically a company

JD Dillon:

that might hire in a frontline employee, and then sit them in

JD Dillon:

the back room for two days for click-next-to- continue

JD Dillon:

elearning, because that's what someone said that they have to

JD Dillon:

do, that employee might just leave, because they have another

JD Dillon:

option. This is not the only chance they have to get a job

JD Dillon:

that pays this amount with these types of benefits. And that's

JD Dillon:

why in the past, especially in frontline employment, we often

JD Dillon:

felt like the employee had to earn the right to work here,

JD Dillon:

right, they earn the job, now the job has to earn the

JD Dillon:

employee. So there's the factor that you can't just sit someone,

JD Dillon:

like people don't have time, or the desire to do that version of

JD Dillon:

training, whether it be onboarding or otherwise, plus

JD Dillon:

operators don't have the time to afford for that. Because if I'm

JD Dillon:

hiring people right now, it's because I need them right now. I

JD Dillon:

don't need them two days from now. If I get them two days from

JD Dillon:

now, I might not be able to open my entire operation today.

JD Dillon:

Right? The restaurant might open not might not make day one. Yes,

JD Dillon:

we might not have all our menu items might be limited, which is

JD Dillon:

going to cut into my my profits and revenue. So so there is not

JD Dillon:

an affordance to be able to do a lot of the traditional things we

JD Dillon:

did when it came to tactics like longer courses, like putting

JD Dillon:

people in a classroom, like the kind of just what traditional

JD Dillon:

nature of workplace training looks like on the front line,

JD Dillon:

and then merge that with that kind of digital transformation

JD Dillon:

reality that technology piece, where in the last few years

JD Dillon:

organizations recognized they can't reach their frontline

JD Dillon:

teams with even simple messages, right. So when things started to

JD Dillon:

change, there are a lot of executives out there who

JD Dillon:

suddenly acknowledged, I can't talk to my staff. Right. And in

JD Dillon:

order to get to my retail staff, I've got to send a message to

JD Dillon:

corporate comms. And then they're gonna deploy a message

JD Dillon:

via email to the store managers, and then those store managers

JD Dillon:

may or may not deliver the desired message on time. And

JD Dillon:

will they get everyone? Or will they only get people who were on

JD Dillon:

shift today? What about the people who don't work this week?

JD Dillon:

Right, all of those things just bubble up very quickly, as

JD Dillon:

things started to change, people needed to keep people up to

JD Dillon:

speed. And we're not necessarily talking about like learning and

JD Dillon:

training, we're talking about baseline communication, quick

JD Dillon:

updates, right, the things you need to know in order to be able

JD Dillon:

to do your work today. So that realization, plus the fact that

JD Dillon:

frontline work became more digital, and devices were

JD Dillon:

suddenly more available than ever before, bring your own

JD Dillon:

device became more acceptable, because people needed to reach

JD Dillon:

their frontline teams to keep them up to date, what was going

JD Dillon:

on, that created new opportunity. Because now L&D can

JD Dillon:

reach the frontline. Where before to get to them, we had to

JD Dillon:

go through that same game of telephone of do we send

JD Dillon:

information to managers and managers deploy the training and

JD Dillon:

teach people which they're not necessarily skilled in doing so.

JD Dillon:

Or we've got to ask real nicely to be able to get people

JD Dillon:

scheduled out of the operation for chunks of time, which before

JD Dillon:

was hard, and now is impossible. But now, because a lot of that

JD Dillon:

technology has opened up and someone's carrying a zebra

JD Dillon:

device all day in in the hardware store, or they're able

JD Dillon:

to use their own phone, or maybe the company's even deployed

JD Dillon:

phones, we've seen personal devices deployed by frontline

JD Dillon:

employers to employees, they're literally giving people phones

JD Dillon:

in certain situations. That's a gateway for L&D to say, I can

JD Dillon:

now reach the employee. But I have to rethink how I do that,

JD Dillon:

or how I design content, how I design activities, how I design

JD Dillon:

resources, because I have now a digital gateway to the front

JD Dillon:

line to be able to get them information in the flow of work.

JD Dillon:

But it needs to fit the flow of work. Because if my content

JD Dillon:

library, and all my resources are built for a traditional

JD Dillon:

delivery, where I've got the person in a back room for two

JD Dillon:

days, even if it's great content, they're not going to do

JD Dillon:

it. They've got five minutes, they've got 10 minutes, they've

JD Dillon:

got the time between when they clock in and they have to hit

JD Dillon:

their you know, get behind the specialty department. How do we

JD Dillon:

use that time becomes the question mark. But the great

JD Dillon:

thing is that the technology gives us new options that we

JD Dillon:

didn't have before. When it comes to different types of

JD Dillon:

content, modality different ways to leverage data, different ways

JD Dillon:

to personalize the experience. So all of all of those things we

JD Dillon:

used to talk about a lot with corporate employees around

JD Dillon:

personalized adaptive learning, digital learning, all of these

JD Dillon:

different types of things, all of those doors are now open for

JD Dillon:

all employees. Because of the way work has changed the way

JD Dillon:

prioritization has changed and that realization that I need to

JD Dillon:

be able to reach my employees. And in order to you know,

JD Dillon:

creating that connection point can be leveraged by more than

JD Dillon:

just the communications team and executive team managers. It can

JD Dillon:

be leveraged equally successfully by L&D.

Tom Moriarty:

That's, that's great. There's a lot there

Tom Moriarty:

sounds to me like this is likely based on the business dynamics

Tom Moriarty:

you shared earlier, probably becoming a really significant

Tom Moriarty:

priority for learning and development professionals with

Tom Moriarty:

large frontline staff.

JD Dillon:

100%. And I think it when we... That's why I keep

JD Dillon:

coming back to the concept of equity, because we can't, we

JD Dillon:

don't have to get rid of anything. I'm not saying you

JD Dillon:

have to completely get rid of any practices that you're using

JD Dillon:

today in order to provide an equitable experience, including

JD Dillon:

frontline employees. It's more about a rethink. When you take a

JD Dillon:

step back and say, what does the work look like? Right? What is

JD Dillon:

the day to day work experience for the audience or audiences

JD Dillon:

you support? And what does that persona of that workforce

JD Dillon:

indicate? Or how does that direct how you adjust your

JD Dillon:

support strategies, because there may be different audiences

JD Dillon:

within your workforce that have similar personas. So you may

JD Dillon:

have frontline retail employees in your audience, you may have

JD Dillon:

contact center agents, and you may have corporate team members

JD Dillon:

Support Center team members, some who work from home some who

JD Dillon:

work in the office. Well, if you look at the contact center

JD Dillon:

employee and the retail employee, their jobs are very

JD Dillon:

different right one is sitting on the phone cannot get off the

JD Dillon:

phone, be on the phone, you have to be on the phone. That's what

JD Dillon:

contact center agents do. The retail employee has maybe

JD Dillon:

working in a specialty store, maybe there's like four other

JD Dillon:

people on shift with them regularly. They're customer

JD Dillon:

facing, they're constantly stocking and restocking shelves,

JD Dillon:

you know, right facing merchandise executing tasks

JD Dillon:

assigned by corporate. So they don't have a ton of time either.

JD Dillon:

But they've got a little bit more flexibility, but they're

JD Dillon:

not in front of a computer and the contact center agent is but

JD Dillon:

the commonality is the fact that they're very operationally

JD Dillon:

focused, they've got minutes in their day, and you're not going

JD Dillon:

to be able to schedule them out to attend a zoom session. Even

JD Dillon:

though the contact center agents sitting in front of a webcam

JD Dillon:

potentially getting their time is difficult. So when you see

JD Dillon:

the similar similarities between personas, they might benefit

JD Dillon:

from similar types of learning experiences, similar types of

JD Dillon:

content design, where the person like me who's maybe the

JD Dillon:

corporate employee, I can make decisions, right? I can say, I'm

JD Dillon:

going to carve 30 minutes out of my schedule today, in order to

JD Dillon:

complete an online course, in something that I am particularly

JD Dillon:

interested in, but it's not maybe something that has been

JD Dillon:

prioritized by the company. So no one assigned to me that

JD Dillon:

training, right? On the frontline side in the context

JD Dillon:

center example, they can't make the decision to say, I'm going

JD Dillon:

to take 30 minutes today.It doesn't it doesn't exist. And if

JD Dillon:

they go to their manager and say, I'd like time that managers

JD Dillon:

got to find time, because they're measured based on call

JD Dillon:

handling time, right? They need to make sure people are there to

JD Dillon:

answer the phone when the phones are ringing. So we can take a

JD Dillon:

lot of that dynamic out by looking at the personas that we

JD Dillon:

support, and figuring out where are there commonalities where

JD Dillon:

the same tools or tactics technologies may work across

JD Dillon:

different audiences, but then where there's such differences

JD Dillon:

in how people do their jobs, the time available, the tools they

JD Dillon:

use, the devices they use, that requires a specific approach or

JD Dillon:

a specific tool to meet that, and then help the people that we

JD Dillon:

work with stakeholders, decision makers, it compliance and legal,

JD Dillon:

like all of our friends, help them see those differences. So

JD Dillon:

they understand why we might need to make investment in

JD Dillon:

certain areas, or why the technology we use for the

JD Dillon:

corporate team doesn't fit on the frontline, because it's just

JD Dillon:

not how frontline employees engage, because of how they do

JD Dillon:

their jobs every day. So rather than make it about learning, and

JD Dillon:

which is what's a good learning strategy that's important to us,

JD Dillon:

that's not necessarily top of mind, for a lot of other people.

JD Dillon:

Make it about what the work experience is like for different

JD Dillon:

people and different personas, and what we can do to help them

JD Dillon:

achieve their goals. Because again, coming back to that

JD Dillon:

earlier point, if if the specialty department, the

JD Dillon:

product team, right, the marketing team, whoever is

JD Dillon:

trying to change behavior, whoever is trying to accomplish

JD Dillon:

a goal or reach a KPI within the business, if we can say to them,

JD Dillon:

I can help you connect to the people who are going to execute

JD Dillon:

your strategy and help you achieve that goal. Here's what I

JD Dillon:

need to do it. That's the way we should be thinking about this

JD Dillon:

story about providing an equitable experience. And then

JD Dillon:

learning is part of that strategy. But it's not about

JD Dillon:

learning, if that makes sense. Because everyone's trying to

JD Dillon:

accomplish different goals. We're specialists in the

JD Dillon:

learning behavior change side of the equation, we need to connect

JD Dillon:

what we do to the personas of our audiences, to the goals and

JD Dillon:

priorities of the people that were enabled by or that are our

JD Dillon:

stakeholders. So connecting those dots is critical to

JD Dillon:

delivering that equitable experience.

Tom Moriarty:

Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense, right? I

Tom Moriarty:

think it's I think what I'm what I'm hearing you say is it's

Tom Moriarty:

about working with the stakeholder audiences that

Tom Moriarty:

you're supporting, understanding their desired outcomes, and then

Tom Moriarty:

trying to help facilitate that through learning. Rather than

Tom Moriarty:

making learning or a learning measurable, the outcome, no

Tom Moriarty:

focus on the business outcome, that that stakeholder that

Tom Moriarty:

you're supporting is trying to achieve. And then help them

Tom Moriarty:

understand how you can facilitate help facilitate that

Tom Moriarty:

outcome through learning. Am I hearing you correctly there?

JD Dillon:

Yes, and I think the most important thing we can do

JD Dillon:

nowadays as L&D, it's less about content and the things we make,

JD Dillon:

and it's more about the channels that we can enable the way that

JD Dillon:

we can help the people who have information or the people who

JD Dillon:

know, reach the people who need it. Because the priority today

JD Dillon:

is unlikely to be the priority six months from now. And

JD Dillon:

unlikely to be the priority 12 months from that, right? It's a

JD Dillon:

constant. The priorities within an organization are moving

JD Dillon:

target. And as a result, the knowledge and skill development

JD Dillon:

requirements for the workforce is equally a moving target. Yes,

JD Dillon:

there are certain things that are consistent, right, workplace

JD Dillon:

safety being one of them, right, that's a constant priority that

JD Dillon:

we're always going to address. But how can we instead of

JD Dillon:

worrying about things from a programmatic perspective, right?

JD Dillon:

Like, how do we structure perfect programs, so people go

JD Dillon:

from A to Z, and that's what we're gonna manage? Right? That

JD Dillon:

just kind of puts us in this constant tailspin of updating,

JD Dillon:

updating new thing, add, add, add, and then the program that

JD Dillon:

was really nice in the beginning. Now, it's kind of

JD Dillon:

this mess, because you had to add 50 different things along

JD Dillon:

the way, because new stakeholder, this lawyer, this

JD Dillon:

new stakeholder, change new business already, yeah. So

JD Dillon:

instead of starting their back out and say, okay, so what are

JD Dillon:

the channels that we can use? Right? If if the executive team

JD Dillon:

needs to reach the frontline with timely message? Can we help

JD Dillon:

enable that channel? Right, because that channel already

JD Dillon:

exists in the corporate workforce? It's Microsoft Teams,

JD Dillon:

or its slack or its email. When that channel doesn't exist? How

JD Dillon:

can this message a message get to the frontline? If we need to

JD Dillon:

deploy skill update training, or we need to deploy product update

JD Dillon:

training from the product team? What are the delivery methods

JD Dillon:

that fit into each of our audiences realities? And how can

JD Dillon:

we enable those channels whether it's installing the right

JD Dillon:

technology, looking at different types of content? met

JD Dillon:

methodologies talking about things like micro learning, so

JD Dillon:

that people know how we can reach these different audiences,

JD Dillon:

right, these channels are there, and different teams can use

JD Dillon:

them. And then we get involved when it's the right project. So

JD Dillon:

when it requires instructional design, right, when there's

JD Dillon:

complexity involved in terms of what people have to learn, and

JD Dillon:

the fact that they have to kind of practice and retain

JD Dillon:

information, when we have to pull out our bag of tricks,

JD Dillon:

we're available to do that. But instead of trying to always be

JD Dillon:

the middle person, in the story, we focus our limited resources

JD Dillon:

and capacity on the right projects. And then we enable

JD Dillon:

others to step in and say it's okay, if the subject matter

JD Dillon:

expert builds content, and deploys it to the audience. But

JD Dillon:

what we don't want happening is every subject matter expert,

JD Dillon:

putting together the worst PowerPoints you've ever seen,

JD Dillon:

and then just tossing them over the fence at the same time at

JD Dillon:

the same person who can't sit there and figure this out.

JD Dillon:

Because none of this is designed to help them, right, everyone's

JD Dillon:

got their own priorities, and they're hitting the same

JD Dillon:

employee with them. And that employee has already got way too

JD Dillon:

much to do. We can protect that experience by establishing

JD Dillon:

better channels and working with our stakeholders to say this is

JD Dillon:

the best way we can enable this person, this is the way to reach

JD Dillon:

them. We'll even... a lot of... in my past roles, a lot of my

JD Dillon:

capacity was put on training subject matter experts to write

JD Dillon:

certain types of content to put together a video that was going

JD Dillon:

to be delivered towards the audience so that we're

JD Dillon:

protecting the limited attention, the limited capacity

JD Dillon:

of the of the employee audience, and enabling people to have

JD Dillon:

information to reach them when they need to. And then only when

JD Dillon:

we have to get involved from a structured training perspective,

JD Dillon:

do we build content and resources and activities because

JD Dillon:

we can't tackle every challenge at the speed that things

JD Dillon:

currently move. So we have to resource accordingly, which is

JD Dillon:

why I think in a lot of cases, we have to put the channels in

JD Dillon:

place, get out of the way, and then step in and support when

JD Dillon:

it's the right thing to do.

Tom Moriarty:

JD those are some great takeaways. I think that

Tom Moriarty:

that also offers a great segue to another area that I want to I

Tom Moriarty:

want to dig into but I think, you know, hopefully, the

Tom Moriarty:

audience got a lot from that. I think there's a lot of valuable

Tom Moriarty:

insight as it relates to stakeholder management, and, you

Tom Moriarty:

know, getting the right focus for the role of learning and

Tom Moriarty:

development in the organization, especially because all

Tom Moriarty:

organizations as you, as you well put are always gonna have

Tom Moriarty:

moving targets the goals, the goalposts, it's, it's it's not

Tom Moriarty:

in the same place. So not as easy as a, you know, a soccer

Tom Moriarty:

game or a football game where you know, it's 100 yards away,

Tom Moriarty:

and it's not going anywhere. That's that's not how it works

Tom Moriarty:

business today. You mentioned something earlier, you know, you

Tom Moriarty:

talked about the challenge of it when you enable different

Tom Moriarty:

subject matter experts, and the potential challenge of every

Tom Moriarty:

single subject matter expert in your organization, creating

Tom Moriarty:

their own beautiful, lovely PowerPoint, and driving it down

Tom Moriarty:

the throat of the the frontline worker or the frontline learner

Tom Moriarty:

all at the same time. Right. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier

Tom Moriarty:

that those same employees, as you will put are very time

Tom Moriarty:

limited, right, the amount of time that they have. And,

Tom Moriarty:

frankly, maybe even desire that they have to focus their energy

Tom Moriarty:

on learning or developing a Skill versus just completing

Tom Moriarty:

their tasks and getting out the door is really limited. So how

Tom Moriarty:

does the Learning and Development Professional

Tom Moriarty:

navigate that? What do they do to get learner buy in to get

Tom Moriarty:

that audience truly engaged and participating in in the training

Tom Moriarty:

that they're offering, whether it be through subject matter

Tom Moriarty:

experts or something that I'm facilitating directly?

JD Dillon:

The biggest key is relevance. So for as Axonify,

JD Dillon:

for example, what we do is we asked frontline employees to log

JD Dillon:

into Axonify for maybe five minutes, every shift. That is a

JD Dillon:

big ask, we know that is a big ask when they have so much to

JD Dillon:

do, especially in a limited staffing environment. And like

JD Dillon:

you said, people have different priorities, different goals

JD Dillon:

different, they're there for different reasons. So in order

JD Dillon:

for that five minutes to matter, that five minutes has to be

JD Dillon:

relevant to me, the employee, I have to get something's gonna

JD Dillon:

help me. And no matter why someone is there, I firmly

JD Dillon:

believe... and and having a background in operational

JD Dillon:

management helps me make statements like this... I

JD Dillon:

believe everyone wants to do a good job. I don't believe

JD Dillon:

everyone wants to make a career at this, right? They don't

JD Dillon:

necessarily want to be with your company for 25 years. However,

JD Dillon:

today, they want to do good job, they want to be safe, they want

JD Dillon:

to get hurt. They don't want a customer to yell at them. They

JD Dillon:

want to be able to answer the question, right? They want to

JD Dillon:

feel good about that. So if that five minutes can be spent

JD Dillon:

helping someone feel better about their ability to do the

JD Dillon:

job, helping them feel more confident, helping them feel

JD Dillon:

like they're clued in, they have the information or helping them

JD Dillon:

feel like if they are interested in pursuing other avenues and

JD Dillon:

opportunities that they have. They're being invested in, right

JD Dillon:

that learning how to do the job better and building new skills

JD Dillon:

and knowledge is part of this. And maybe it's not in a lot of

JD Dillon:

other jobs or other jobs they've had in the past. And it's

JD Dillon:

actually a factor that contributes to them wanting to

JD Dillon:

stay and do a good job in this organization. So it begins with

JD Dillon:

relevance that every time someone accesses learning

JD Dillon:

resources, every time someone logs into the learning platform,

JD Dillon:

they get what's useful to them. Not what everyone got, because

JD Dillon:

well, that's what was sent out today, or someone required

JD Dillon:

everyone to take the training. And that's where things are

JD Dillon:

concepts like adaptive learning, personalization, data and

JD Dillon:

measurement, all of that comes into play, because technology

JD Dillon:

does allow us to figure out, you know, for you today, what's the

JD Dillon:

best thing that we can work on with you today, as opposed to

JD Dillon:

the person next to you, maybe has a different area of need, or

JD Dillon:

different interest. So we're gonna focus on something

JD Dillon:

different with that individual, even though you do the same job,

JD Dillon:

we want to make sure that training is hyper relevant to

JD Dillon:

you, so that every time you come back, you get something useful,

JD Dillon:

and you say, this is worth my time. It's not just something my

JD Dillon:

manager asked me to do, and definitely not doing it because

JD Dillon:

some L&D person I've never met asked me to do it, right. It's

JD Dillon:

something that's helping me. And then on top of that, you can

JD Dillon:

layer in additional tactics, especially from the beginning,

JD Dillon:

because the idea of relevance and value-add is very much

JD Dillon:

intrinsic motivation, right, we want people to do the thing,

JD Dillon:

because they want to do the thing, not because I asked them

JD Dillon:

to or told them to, or because I tricked them into doing it,

JD Dillon:

right. We want learning to be something people are invested in

JD Dillon:

and own themselves. And that comes from relevance. But at the

JD Dillon:

same time, sometimes you have to get that attention, or find

JD Dillon:

other ways to start building the habit. Because one of the things

JD Dillon:

we talked about it exemplifies building a habit of everyday

JD Dillon:

learning, making something that creating an experience that

JD Dillon:

people can complete once a shift, and it becomes just, it's

JD Dillon:

not something you got to ask about. It's just something you

JD Dillon:

do. Like all the other things you do at your your job every

JD Dillon:

day, it's just part of the job, right? So how do you establish

JD Dillon:

that for people who maybe haven't ever thought about

JD Dillon:

workplace training that way, maybe in their previous jobs

JD Dillon:

training was once a quarter, they put me in a room and they

JD Dillon:

tell me all the stuff, and no one actually learned or I have

JD Dillon:

to sit in the back room for multiple days in onboarding and

JD Dillon:

after onboarding, I don't really get much when it comes to

JD Dillon:

development activity. Or maybe this is my first job. And I

JD Dillon:

think learning looks like school. Right? Because school,

JD Dillon:

you go to a class for a period of time, and it's over and

JD Dillon:

you're done learning that, that doesn't look like workplace

JD Dillon:

learning, especially to me. So how do we get people out of that

JD Dillon:

mode of learning is a place and a time to learning is a

JD Dillon:

continuous habit and activity. That's where tactics like

JD Dillon:

gamification come in. So it's about layering in these

JD Dillon:

different mechanics and understanding your workplace

JD Dillon:

culture and the people you're supporting. So you can craft an

JD Dillon:

experience that makes sense for your audience and your work

JD Dillon:

environment, and then use these types of mechanics and and an

JD Dillon:

experience that's simple and straightforward, right? So it's

JD Dillon:

not hard for people to find it. It's not hard for people to get

JD Dillon:

to content. I once asked my team in a previous job, how many

JD Dillon:

clicks does it take to play a video in our learning management

JD Dillon:

system? And the answer was seven. And I said, how many

JD Dillon:

clicks does it take to play a YouTube video? One? What do you

JD Dillon:

think's going to happen here? Right, we're being judged at the

JD Dillon:

bar of consumer technology, not just workplace technology. So if

JD Dillon:

you craft an experience, that's easy to get to, right in the

JD Dillon:

flow of work, if I'm holding a device as part of my job, can I

JD Dillon:

get to my resources on this device, rather than having to

JD Dillon:

put this device down and go to a place I never go to in order to

JD Dillon:

experience training? Right? We've already lost in that

JD Dillon:

scenario. So is it easy to get to is easy to understand, right?

JD Dillon:

I have to click through a bunch of menus or click through a

JD Dillon:

bunch of websites that I don't know, in order to get where I

JD Dillon:

need to go. And then when I'm there? Is it an engaging

JD Dillon:

experience that may again, bring me back for different reasons,

JD Dillon:

because this is, dare I say, fun to do? Write every day? And then

JD Dillon:

ultimately, is this helping me if every time I come into the

JD Dillon:

learning platform, it helps me remember something? It helps me

JD Dillon:

learn something new, it helps me? Oh, I didn't. I never

JD Dillon:

thought about it that way. If you get that experience every

JD Dillon:

day, then learning becomes part of work. So that's what it takes

JD Dillon:

to engage a large distributed workforce and a lot of cases a

JD Dillon:

workforce that L&D rarely physically sees, right? If you

JD Dillon:

have 75,000 employees and 40 people on your L&D team, you

JD Dillon:

never interact with most of your employees. But how do you

JD Dillon:

understand their day to day experience enough so that you

JD Dillon:

craft an experience that makes it feel like to that employee,

JD Dillon:

that the person who put this together understands me, what I

JD Dillon:

go through what my day to day looks like and what I need, and

JD Dillon:

the right combination of things like game mechanics, data, AI,

JD Dillon:

personalization, mobile technology, it's about bringing

JD Dillon:

all of the things we've been talking about often in isolation

JD Dillon:

for like, the last 10 years, bringing all of those pieces

JD Dillon:

together, because that's what it takes to put by that equitable

JD Dillon:

experience we're talking about. And it is unfortunately, more

JD Dillon:

challenging for a distributed workforce that in large numbers

JD Dillon:

that work in different regions, different countries, like you

JD Dillon:

said, very time limited, those are a lot of meaningful

JD Dillon:

challenges. But I've worked with organizations where we figured

JD Dillon:

out how to provide an equitable experience to a person driving a

JD Dillon:

moped in a country that I've never been to as part of a ride

JD Dillon:

sharing service, where the person is carrying an Android

JD Dillon:

device that you can't buy on the on the internet, the only way to

JD Dillon:

test your application on that device is to eBay old devices,

JD Dillon:

they also don't necessarily have great internet connection, and

JD Dillon:

there is no Wi Fi on the back of the moped. So if you can figure

JD Dillon:

that out how to get that person relevant support that they'll

JD Dillon:

use every day, everything else suddenly gets a lot easier. So

JD Dillon:

it's always interesting, when people will ask me and my team,

JD Dillon:

you know, we have limited bandwidth in our retail stores,

JD Dillon:

right? The bandwidth is all taken up by the point of sale

JD Dillon:

system, business processes, and whatnot like, and our elearning

JD Dillon:

always like buffers for like 10 minutes when people are trying

JD Dillon:

to load it. Like, if we can reach someone via cell service

JD Dillon:

on an Android device is 10 years old, who's riding a motorcycle

JD Dillon:

in a country, none of us have been to, I think, I think I can

JD Dillon:

handle your retail store. It's making sure we can, we can

JD Dillon:

handle those types of environments. Because just you

JD Dillon:

know, I think the overall message is, it's possible, you

JD Dillon:

can reach everybody, it just requires the right amount of

JD Dillon:

effort and investment. In order to make sure you're architecting

JD Dillon:

experiences that make sense for people and not expecting them to

JD Dillon:

come to you, we have to go to them. And that is now fully

JD Dillon:

possible for different types of workers.

Tom Moriarty:

I love that there's, there's a lot there,

Tom Moriarty:

there's a lot to unpack. But I love that I love the thought.

Tom Moriarty:

First of all, I love the possibility in that example of

Tom Moriarty:

reaching the worker on Android device that you can only get on

Tom Moriarty:

eBay on the back of a moped. And if you could do that, you know,

Tom Moriarty:

there's a lot that can be accomplished. And I love that

Tom Moriarty:

that's very, hopefully should be a very motivating message for

Tom Moriarty:

the audience. I think that there's a lot of value in that

Tom Moriarty:

concept that you shared, of maybe start by focusing on

Tom Moriarty:

making learning for the frontline employee a habit and

Tom Moriarty:

start by having a clear focus on how do I accomplish that first.

Tom Moriarty:

And once I've accomplished that, then I can start to add levels

Tom Moriarty:

of complexity to what it is that they're learning, right. But I

Tom Moriarty:

have to cross that bridge before I can even get to the second

Tom Moriarty:

bridge, to be able to make sure that you know the program or the

Tom Moriarty:

content that I'm putting together ultimately, is

Tom Moriarty:

something that's effective. I think that's... I think that's

Tom Moriarty:

really great. I guess to wrap up with a with a final question, if

Tom Moriarty:

there was one takeaway that you would hope, a learning and

Tom Moriarty:

development team, let's say at a large retail organization with

Tom Moriarty:

500 locations and frontline employees and a contact center,

Tom Moriarty:

you know, people working in a store, if there's one takeaway

Tom Moriarty:

that you would want them to take from this conversation, and you

Tom Moriarty:

could only pick one, what would that be?

JD Dillon:

It would be that you can accomplish a lot in five

JD Dillon:

minutes. Right? Five minutes does not sound like a lot and

JD Dillon:

learning and development, especially when we're used to,

JD Dillon:

like you said very complex products, right, very complex

JD Dillon:

training programs, onboarding experiences that take weeks, in

JD Dillon:

a lot of cases, any any backup to well, what can you really

JD Dillon:

learn in five minutes, you're not going to learn how to fly an

JD Dillon:

airplane in five minutes. I completely agree. Right? I'm not

JD Dillon:

saying it's only five minutes, the only only version of

JD Dillon:

training we ever do an example of frontline employees. In a

JD Dillon:

retail environment, there's a lot of hands on training, right?

JD Dillon:

There's a lot of peer to peer training, manager led training

JD Dillon:

where you are physically doing the job. And that's a huge part

JD Dillon:

of the story. None of that goes away. But like you said, when

JD Dillon:

it's grounded on this foundation, that we're going to

JD Dillon:

help incrementally improve people's knowledge, we're going

JD Dillon:

to reinforce people's knowledge that there is some thing about

JD Dillon:

learning that is built into the workflow, whether it's a push

JD Dillon:

experience that I get, you know, push that right fit activity,

JD Dillon:

I'm going to focus on today, whether it's I can use my

JD Dillon:

handheld device to pull up information when I need to when

JD Dillon:

I need to solve a problem. When we embed the experience of

JD Dillon:

learning into the day in this way. It changes the way you talk

JD Dillon:

about workplace learning, it changes the way that you value

JD Dillon:

these ideas, because you're opening up this channel that you

JD Dillon:

can then and building this habit that you can leverage as things

JD Dillon:

change. So instead of having to try to get people's attention

JD Dillon:

every time there's a new program every time you want to train

JD Dillon:

them on something new and you got to go through the rigmarole

JD Dillon:

of how are we going to schedule people? Right, can we how long

JD Dillon:

is it going to take we got to make a spreadsheet so we can

JD Dillon:

send out to the managers of the people who are delinquent so we

JD Dillon:

can make sure we get 100% Right? All of that starts to become

JD Dillon:

less and less of a burden. When you think about how can we build

JD Dillon:

that habit to say, So what are you going to do for five minutes

JD Dillon:

a day? And the other thing that I didn't mention before, is that

JD Dillon:

when you think about learning in terms of minutes, instead of

JD Dillon:

programs, you're actually closer to how learning really works.

JD Dillon:

Because you can create a great two hour online course, it can

JD Dillon:

be the most dynamic and engaging piece of content you've ever

JD Dillon:

seen. People are not going to remember most of it, right?

JD Dillon:

Unless they immediately walk out the door and start applying that

JD Dillon:

information. And that drives retention. Right? Great. If you

JD Dillon:

can deliver it at the moment of need. That way, we usually don't

JD Dillon:

have that luxury, especially at the scale of trying to support

JD Dillon:

400,000 People who are all in very different places, when it

JD Dillon:

comes to their development. And when they're going to maybe deal

JD Dillon:

with a particular customer objection, or they're going to

JD Dillon:

handle a particular product or try to upsell a particular

JD Dillon:

thing, right. It's all very unpredictable in that way. So

JD Dillon:

when you distill it back down to say, instead of trying to hit

JD Dillon:

everyone with a firehose of content, because I can only

JD Dillon:

access them once in a while. Instead, if I can reach people

JD Dillon:

for five minutes a day or five minutes a shift, I can

JD Dillon:

incrementally grow their knowledge, right, I can say,

JD Dillon:

we're going to focus on the foundational pieces, and then

JD Dillon:

you might accelerate in that five minutes a day much faster

JD Dillon:

than the other person next to you. And we're going to spend

JD Dillon:

some more time on the foundation with that person. But here,

JD Dillon:

we're gonna accelerate you forward towards additional

JD Dillon:

information towards new skills that might help you pursue

JD Dillon:

additional opportunities. But when it's when it's grounded in

JD Dillon:

five minutes a day learning becomes a habit, learning

JD Dillon:

becomes part of the culture.

Tom Moriarty:

I love that I think that's a great takeaway. I

Tom Moriarty:

really liked that. And the other statement that you made that I

Tom Moriarty:

think that sums up well to is think of learning in minutes,

Tom Moriarty:

not in programs. That that's that's a fantastic takeaway.

Tom Moriarty:

And, you know, I think it's one that, you know, hopefully the

Tom Moriarty:

audience can absolutely use for the frontline employee. But

Tom Moriarty:

frankly, I think any, anybody that's receiving learning, and

Tom Moriarty:

you're right, that it works in in time, not in, not in programs

Tom Moriarty:

or courses. JD, thank you so much for your for your time.

Tom Moriarty:

This has been a fantastic conversation. I think it's been

Tom Moriarty:

very enjoyable. I'm sure the audience has pages and pages and

Tom Moriarty:

notes I know I do. If anybody in the audience wants to hear more

Tom Moriarty:

about what you are doing or what Axonify is doing, or get more of

Tom Moriarty:

the valuable content and information that you shared,

Tom Moriarty:

where can they find you?

JD Dillon:

Sure, you can find out more about Axonify

JD Dillon:

axonify.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, just search JD Dylan,

JD Dillon:

there's only one I in my last name, despite what everyone

JD Dillon:

seems to believe. And then also, I'd recommend that every two

JD Dillon:weeks on Wednesdays at:JD Dillon:

stream with Axonify where we bring on smart people from

JD Dillon:

across the industry and 25 minutes or less, I ask five

JD Dillon:

questions about a very pointed part of the story of workplace

JD Dillon:

learning and experience. We talk about things like retail

JD Dillon:

transformation, we're talking about games and learning with

JD Dillon:

Karl, we're going to talk about the skills story with Dani

JD Dillon:

Johnson from RedThread. So I urge people if you want to dig

JD Dillon:

into more of these types of themes, check out our LinkedIn

JD Dillon:that's every other Wednesday:JD Dillon:

And you'll see plenty of from me on LinkedIn sharing, when

JD Dillon:

upcoming episodes will be airing. And you can find it all

JD Dillon:

of our recorded episodes are on YouTube as well. So if you go to

JD Dillon:

Axonify, his YouTube channel, you can check out our past

JD Dillon:

episodes.

Tom Moriarty:

Well, thank you so much. JD, I really appreciate

Tom Moriarty:

your time. This is a very enjoyable and informative

Tom Moriarty:

conversation for me. So I really appreciate and I know our

Tom Moriarty:

audience well. Thanks so much and have a great rest of your

Tom Moriarty:

day.

JD Dillon:

Bye, everybody.

Tom Moriarty:

The Secret Society of Success is hosted by Mimeo,

Tom Moriarty:

the better way to print. Check out our sister podcast, Talk of

Tom Moriarty:

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Tom Moriarty:

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