JD Dillon, Chief Learning Architect at Axonify, defines hybrid learning with one word: equity. Tune in for his take on what hybrid learning is and how it is your secret to enabling (and keeping) frontline employees.
Transcript
Welcome, you made it to the Secret Society of
Tom Moriarty:Success! In this not-so-secret podcast, we interview L&D
Tom Moriarty:changemakers about how they approach the evolving corporate
Tom Moriarty:environment and cultivate their own careers. We hope that from
Tom Moriarty:their stories, you find lessons and inspirations to make
Tom Moriarty:yourself, your people and your organization's more successful.
Tom Moriarty:In this first season, we're exploring topic of hybrid
learning:what that means at different organizations, why it
learning:is increasingly important, and how L&D leaders can invest in
learning:the right resources to best leverage it. In this episode,
learning:we're focusing on delivering hybrid learning to frontline
learning:employees to discuss what that means and how to do it well.
learning:We've invited JD Dillon, Chief Learning Architect at Axonify to
learning:join the conversation. Welcome, JD.
JD Dillon:Hi, everybody.
Tom Moriarty:JD, I know you've got vast experience in the L&D
Tom Moriarty:world, but but for our listeners who might be get to know you for
Tom Moriarty:the first time through this podcast, why don't you tell us a
Tom Moriarty:little bit about your background?
JD Dillon:Sure, I've been doing this for 20 odd years at this
JD Dillon:point. By "this" I mean a blend of corporate operations
JD Dillon:management and learning and development roles. So the bulk
JD Dillon:of my career was really split between three different
JD Dillon:organizations. So I spent 10 years with the Walt Disney
JD Dillon:Company, which is why I live in Orlando, Florida, and I can hear
JD Dillon:the Magic Kingdom. So if anyone wonders exactly how close am I
JD Dillon:to Disney, I can, especially at night, I can hear the Magic
JD Dillon:Kingdom. So I spent 10 years in various different types of roles
JD Dillon:doing some wacky stuff at Disney, including workplace
JD Dillon:learning and development roles, supporting cast members across
JD Dillon:the resort, so about 65,000 ish people. And then I went to
JD Dillon:Kaplan, the world's largest education company, where I was
JD Dillon:director of learning technology and development. So I handled
JD Dillon:our technology stack, our instructional design and content
JD Dillon:practices and that type of stuff. And then about six ish
JD Dillon:years ago, at this point, little over six years, I went across
JD Dillon:the street to the provider side of the equation in learning and
JD Dillon:development and joined Axonify. I was actually a customer of
JD Dillon:Axonify. When I was at Kaplan, I was a customer number seven. So
JD Dillon:I got to know the team early on, and then formally joined as
JD Dillon:Chief Learning Architect a little over six years ago. And
JD Dillon:now I basically spend a lot of my time in the learning and
JD Dillon:performance space, talking to people understanding what
JD Dillon:challenges they're facing, how they're overcoming those
JD Dillon:challenges, and then connecting the dots to what we do at
JD Dillon:Axonify to improve our technology, our content, our
JD Dillon:services, and our and our messaging so we can help
JD Dillon:especially frontline employees around the world in spaces like
JD Dillon:retail, grocery manufacturing, contact centers, finance and
JD Dillon:insurance do their best work every day. And that's why I do
JD Dillon:what I do.
Tom Moriarty:That's awesome. JD, thanks for the intro in the
Tom Moriarty:background. And obviously, we've got an expert on our hands here.
Tom Moriarty:So look, really looking forward to digging into the
Tom Moriarty:conversation. Now that we've gotten to know you a little bit,
Tom Moriarty:I want to for the sake of the audience level set, a couple of
Tom Moriarty:terms definitions from your perspective of some key terms
Tom Moriarty:that we'll focus on throughout this conversation. So the first
Tom Moriarty:one is hybrid learning. What does that mean to you?
JD Dillon:To me, hybrid learning basically means equity,
JD Dillon:it means that it doesn't matter where I do my job, I get the
JD Dillon:support that I need to be able to do it as effectively as I
JD Dillon:can. So in a large organization, that dynamic company that has a
JD Dillon:global presence, and may have hundreds to 1000s of different
JD Dillon:job roles and people doing their jobs in very different ways. So
JD Dillon:one learning and development or HR function may be supporting
JD Dillon:audiences that include people like me, who... I'm sitting at a
JD Dillon:desk in front of an unnecessarily bright lighting
JD Dillon:panel right now, they may have to support me working from home.
JD Dillon:Simultaneously, maybe you support workers who are in on
JD Dillon:the manufacturing line, you may support traveling salespeople,
JD Dillon:you may support people who are frontline in a retail like
JD Dillon:environment. And in a true hybrid learning scenario, if
JD Dillon:we're really accomplishing what the term hybrid learning means,
JD Dillon:it means all of those people get the right support. They don't
JD Dillon:get the same support, right, because the same support does
JD Dillon:not support all of those different people because they do
JD Dillon:their jobs very differently. So in order to accomplish what we
JD Dillon:talked about in terms of a hybrid learning strategy,
JD Dillon:everyone in the organization needs to have equitable access
JD Dillon:to learning and support resources so they can do their
JD Dillon:best work, regardless of how that work is done.
Tom Moriarty:That's great. Thank you. That was a very
Tom Moriarty:thorough definition. I really like the term equity, and the
Tom Moriarty:focus on the equitable distribution of learning
Tom Moriarty:resources to all employees. I think that's a that's a really
Tom Moriarty:good takeaway. I'm sure it's something we'll come back to
Tom Moriarty:throughout the conversation. For our conversation based on your
Tom Moriarty:focus Axonify and what you guys do, we're going to focus
Tom Moriarty:specifically on delivering hybrid learning to a frontline
Tom Moriarty:employee. So to make sure, I think, to very commonly used
Tom Moriarty:term especially in the last 24 to 36 months, given everything
Tom Moriarty:that's been going on, but could you quickly defined, what would
Tom Moriarty:you see as a frontline employee?
JD Dillon:The simplest way I tend to break it down is it's
JD Dillon:the people who are directly interacting with the company's
JD Dillon:customers and or products and services. So, from a consumer
JD Dillon:perspective, it's the people you talk to. So when you go to the
JD Dillon:grocery store, it's the it's the clerks that you interact with,
JD Dillon:the person who slices your deli meat, the person who checks you
JD Dillon:out at the cash register, the person who may be brings your
JD Dillon:groceries to the curb, to fulfill your online order, it
JD Dillon:may be the person who is dropping off the package that
JD Dillon:you ordered online. And as a delivery driver, it may be the
JD Dillon:person who packed that package in a logistics distribution
JD Dillon:center or warehouse, or the person who was on the
JD Dillon:manufacturing line putting that package together, or that
JD Dillon:product together. So it's the people who are most directly
JD Dillon:facing the customer side of the business. So the contact center
JD Dillon:agent, the people who we interact with, and when you do
JD Dillon:the math, roughly speaking, it represents about 80% of the
JD Dillon:global workforce. Because when you think of large
JD Dillon:organizations, like a retailer, as an example, a retailer may
JD Dillon:have, let's say 600 locations, and they have, you know, maybe
JD Dillon:1000 people in the corporate team, but they have 30,000
JD Dillon:people on the frontline team, right? So it's it's the larger
JD Dillon:chunk of the global workforce. And unfortunately, it's also the
JD Dillon:most underserved part of the workforce when it comes to
JD Dillon:learning and support practices.
Tom Moriarty:Sounds like a challenge, but also maybe an
Tom Moriarty:opportunity at the same time, right. That's great. Thank you.
Tom Moriarty:I think that that that will level set the stage for
Tom Moriarty:everybody. And I think that those definitions, you know,
Tom Moriarty:where we're talking about the audience, in an organization
Tom Moriarty:that specifically directly interacting with the customer or
Tom Moriarty:the product, I think that's a great definition. And, you know,
Tom Moriarty:for the context, this conversation, we're going to
Tom Moriarty:focus about how to make sure there's equity in the learning
Tom Moriarty:environment, so that those probably harder to reach
Tom Moriarty:physically, people in the organization, and as you well
Tom Moriarty:said, historically underserved people in the organization, how
Tom Moriarty:are how are they getting the proper learning so that we do
Tom Moriarty:have an equitable environment? So, you know, the world has had
Tom Moriarty:a lot going on in the last 24 to 36 months. I'd love to
Tom Moriarty:understand from your perspective, you've been working
Tom Moriarty:in that, you know, serving the frontline workers through
Tom Moriarty:Axonify, for well, before March 2020. How has that environment
Tom Moriarty:changed in the last 24 months that with all that's been going
Tom Moriarty:on in the world?
JD Dillon:So I think the first piece is to recognize the fact
JD Dillon:that businesses have realized the importance of the frontline
JD Dillon:workforce. I don't think anyone would have ever said frontline
JD Dillon:execution is not important to our business. But at the same
JD Dillon:time, I don't believe most organizations meaningfully
JD Dillon:prioritized that, which is why I said that they're often
JD Dillon:underserved when it comes to not just learning and support
JD Dillon:resources, but technology, broadly speaking, communication,
JD Dillon:rewards and recognition, right. A lot of strategies that are
JD Dillon:often applied in a corporate environment, or even in a remote
JD Dillon:environment, often have not hit the frontline workforce. So the
JD Dillon:fact that we relied on that team. So clearly, for the last
JD Dillon:couple of years, we've always relied on them. But we noticed
JD Dillon:the last couple of years, the consumers noticed and
JD Dillon:organizations noticed. And then organizations noticed when those
JD Dillon:people went missing. So right now everyone is having talent,
JD Dillon:retention and acquisition problems. And that's especially
JD Dillon:clear in frontline roles now that employees have options,
JD Dillon:where before it didn't high turnover didn't necessarily
JD Dillon:matter. Because there were people that were going to
JD Dillon:backfill those positions in a lot of people's minds. Today,
JD Dillon:finding those people is much more difficult because every
JD Dillon:retailer and restaurant and logistics operation is not only
JD Dillon:competing with Amazon, and not only competing against employers
JD Dillon:who are all raising their wages and their benefits, which are
JD Dillon:all positive things. But now they're also competing with
JD Dillon:remote work opportunities. And the fact that it's easier than
JD Dillon:ever for me to make a shift in direction when it comes to what
JD Dillon:I may want to do instead of going back to work in the
JD Dillon:restaurant that was closed for a while, I might not want to go
JD Dillon:back to that because now, circumstances have afforded me a
JD Dillon:decision. And I'm making a decision and taking
JD Dillon:opportunities that previously were not available to me. And
JD Dillon:then there's all you know, other considerations around number of
JD Dillon:people who retired out of the frontline workforce. So overall,
JD Dillon:I think organizations have now recognized how just challenging
JD Dillon:it is to run your business, not only when you're short staffed
JD Dillon:on the front line, but when you also don't have the right
JD Dillon:capability, the right skills on the front line, because before
JD Dillon:you may have been hiring in people who had some retail
JD Dillon:background to backfill people who are returning out in those
JD Dillon:environments. Now it's hard to find people who have that
JD Dillon:experience who are coming through the door with certain
JD Dillon:knowledge and skills So now we have to look at, well, how do we
JD Dillon:not only close gaps within the operation so we can keep doors
JD Dillon:open, keep our stores open, as long as you want to make sure
JD Dillon:our specialty departments are open, make sure we're able to
JD Dillon:provide a differentiated customer experience that brings
JD Dillon:people back. So they don't always go online or they go
JD Dillon:online to your channels. But how do we get people up to speed
JD Dillon:quickly, and replace some of that knowledge that walked out
JD Dillon:the door when turnover happened out of circumstance over the
JD Dillon:last two years. So I think those those factors, and then the
JD Dillon:nature of how that frontline work is done has also shifted
JD Dillon:considerably. And everyone says things like, you know, the last
JD Dillon:few years have actually accelerated this 10 plus years
JD Dillon:when it comes to things like digital transformation, and that
JD Dillon:type of stuff. And that's true on the frontline as well, where
JD Dillon:I think the concept of digital transformation has lagged, you
JD Dillon:know, where people like us have were zooming before 2020. And
JD Dillon:now we are heavily zoomed. In frontline employees often didn't
JD Dillon:see the same type of technology investment or didn't see the
JD Dillon:same type of impact of their work. But now more employees
JD Dillon:than ever carrying around handheld devices, because
JD Dillon:they're fulfilling online orders and interacting directly with
JD Dillon:customers via chat applications. More and more organizations
JD Dillon:starting to recognize the potential for Bring Your Own
JD Dillon:Device strategies. And a lot of that red tape is starting to
JD Dillon:fall away that the technology environment around the frontline
JD Dillon:workforce has shifted out of necessity, over the past couple
JD Dillon:of years, which has accelerated that that teams need to be able
JD Dillon:to have those types of skills be able to leverage technology in
JD Dillon:their work in ways that were, I'd say more progressive on the
JD Dillon:corporate side before the last few years. And now they've
JD Dillon:caught up a bit when it comes to having a more digitally enabled
JD Dillon:day to day work experience.
Tom Moriarty:That's great. So what I'm hearing there, taking
Tom Moriarty:notes, as the some of the key takeaways and changes, I think
Tom Moriarty:first is that realization from the company perspective of the
Tom Moriarty:true importance, right, a real level of detail about the
Tom Moriarty:realization and the impact that the frontline has on each and
Tom Moriarty:every organization that has a large frontline employees staff,
Tom Moriarty:the second being the really competitive work environment,
Tom Moriarty:right, a competitive labor environment at the end of the
Tom Moriarty:day that that has created significant business challenges
Tom Moriarty:for the businesses with a high amount of frontline employees.
Tom Moriarty:And then the third being the technological changes for
Tom Moriarty:frontline plays, and changes in either business strategy or
Tom Moriarty:support for those employees as it relates to access for
Tom Moriarty:technology. So obviously, those are three big pillars of change
Tom Moriarty:there. I mean, how do those, you know, jumping into the learning
Tom Moriarty:side of things, you know, how has those three pillars affected
Tom Moriarty:how organizations go about delivering the skills and
Tom Moriarty:knowledge that those people need to get up to speed quickly?
JD Dillon:I'd say it has opened doors, because if you kind of
JD Dillon:take two considerations in mind, and how do you overcome these
JD Dillon:considerations, which is one, like we said, You've got to
JD Dillon:onboard people quickly, in a way that is going to set them up for
JD Dillon:success, make them feel confident their ability to do
JD Dillon:this job, and also make them feel good in the decision that
JD Dillon:they decided to work here. So if you are historically a company
JD Dillon:that might hire in a frontline employee, and then sit them in
JD Dillon:the back room for two days for click-next-to- continue
JD Dillon:elearning, because that's what someone said that they have to
JD Dillon:do, that employee might just leave, because they have another
JD Dillon:option. This is not the only chance they have to get a job
JD Dillon:that pays this amount with these types of benefits. And that's
JD Dillon:why in the past, especially in frontline employment, we often
JD Dillon:felt like the employee had to earn the right to work here,
JD Dillon:right, they earn the job, now the job has to earn the
JD Dillon:employee. So there's the factor that you can't just sit someone,
JD Dillon:like people don't have time, or the desire to do that version of
JD Dillon:training, whether it be onboarding or otherwise, plus
JD Dillon:operators don't have the time to afford for that. Because if I'm
JD Dillon:hiring people right now, it's because I need them right now. I
JD Dillon:don't need them two days from now. If I get them two days from
JD Dillon:now, I might not be able to open my entire operation today.
JD Dillon:Right? The restaurant might open not might not make day one. Yes,
JD Dillon:we might not have all our menu items might be limited, which is
JD Dillon:going to cut into my my profits and revenue. So so there is not
JD Dillon:an affordance to be able to do a lot of the traditional things we
JD Dillon:did when it came to tactics like longer courses, like putting
JD Dillon:people in a classroom, like the kind of just what traditional
JD Dillon:nature of workplace training looks like on the front line,
JD Dillon:and then merge that with that kind of digital transformation
JD Dillon:reality that technology piece, where in the last few years
JD Dillon:organizations recognized they can't reach their frontline
JD Dillon:teams with even simple messages, right. So when things started to
JD Dillon:change, there are a lot of executives out there who
JD Dillon:suddenly acknowledged, I can't talk to my staff. Right. And in
JD Dillon:order to get to my retail staff, I've got to send a message to
JD Dillon:corporate comms. And then they're gonna deploy a message
JD Dillon:via email to the store managers, and then those store managers
JD Dillon:may or may not deliver the desired message on time. And
JD Dillon:will they get everyone? Or will they only get people who were on
JD Dillon:shift today? What about the people who don't work this week?
JD Dillon:Right, all of those things just bubble up very quickly, as
JD Dillon:things started to change, people needed to keep people up to
JD Dillon:speed. And we're not necessarily talking about like learning and
JD Dillon:training, we're talking about baseline communication, quick
JD Dillon:updates, right, the things you need to know in order to be able
JD Dillon:to do your work today. So that realization, plus the fact that
JD Dillon:frontline work became more digital, and devices were
JD Dillon:suddenly more available than ever before, bring your own
JD Dillon:device became more acceptable, because people needed to reach
JD Dillon:their frontline teams to keep them up to date, what was going
JD Dillon:on, that created new opportunity. Because now L&D can
JD Dillon:reach the frontline. Where before to get to them, we had to
JD Dillon:go through that same game of telephone of do we send
JD Dillon:information to managers and managers deploy the training and
JD Dillon:teach people which they're not necessarily skilled in doing so.
JD Dillon:Or we've got to ask real nicely to be able to get people
JD Dillon:scheduled out of the operation for chunks of time, which before
JD Dillon:was hard, and now is impossible. But now, because a lot of that
JD Dillon:technology has opened up and someone's carrying a zebra
JD Dillon:device all day in in the hardware store, or they're able
JD Dillon:to use their own phone, or maybe the company's even deployed
JD Dillon:phones, we've seen personal devices deployed by frontline
JD Dillon:employers to employees, they're literally giving people phones
JD Dillon:in certain situations. That's a gateway for L&D to say, I can
JD Dillon:now reach the employee. But I have to rethink how I do that,
JD Dillon:or how I design content, how I design activities, how I design
JD Dillon:resources, because I have now a digital gateway to the front
JD Dillon:line to be able to get them information in the flow of work.
JD Dillon:But it needs to fit the flow of work. Because if my content
JD Dillon:library, and all my resources are built for a traditional
JD Dillon:delivery, where I've got the person in a back room for two
JD Dillon:days, even if it's great content, they're not going to do
JD Dillon:it. They've got five minutes, they've got 10 minutes, they've
JD Dillon:got the time between when they clock in and they have to hit
JD Dillon:their you know, get behind the specialty department. How do we
JD Dillon:use that time becomes the question mark. But the great
JD Dillon:thing is that the technology gives us new options that we
JD Dillon:didn't have before. When it comes to different types of
JD Dillon:content, modality different ways to leverage data, different ways
JD Dillon:to personalize the experience. So all of all of those things we
JD Dillon:used to talk about a lot with corporate employees around
JD Dillon:personalized adaptive learning, digital learning, all of these
JD Dillon:different types of things, all of those doors are now open for
JD Dillon:all employees. Because of the way work has changed the way
JD Dillon:prioritization has changed and that realization that I need to
JD Dillon:be able to reach my employees. And in order to you know,
JD Dillon:creating that connection point can be leveraged by more than
JD Dillon:just the communications team and executive team managers. It can
JD Dillon:be leveraged equally successfully by L&D.
Tom Moriarty:That's, that's great. There's a lot there
Tom Moriarty:sounds to me like this is likely based on the business dynamics
Tom Moriarty:you shared earlier, probably becoming a really significant
Tom Moriarty:priority for learning and development professionals with
Tom Moriarty:large frontline staff.
JD Dillon:100%. And I think it when we... That's why I keep
JD Dillon:coming back to the concept of equity, because we can't, we
JD Dillon:don't have to get rid of anything. I'm not saying you
JD Dillon:have to completely get rid of any practices that you're using
JD Dillon:today in order to provide an equitable experience, including
JD Dillon:frontline employees. It's more about a rethink. When you take a
JD Dillon:step back and say, what does the work look like? Right? What is
JD Dillon:the day to day work experience for the audience or audiences
JD Dillon:you support? And what does that persona of that workforce
JD Dillon:indicate? Or how does that direct how you adjust your
JD Dillon:support strategies, because there may be different audiences
JD Dillon:within your workforce that have similar personas. So you may
JD Dillon:have frontline retail employees in your audience, you may have
JD Dillon:contact center agents, and you may have corporate team members
JD Dillon:Support Center team members, some who work from home some who
JD Dillon:work in the office. Well, if you look at the contact center
JD Dillon:employee and the retail employee, their jobs are very
JD Dillon:different right one is sitting on the phone cannot get off the
JD Dillon:phone, be on the phone, you have to be on the phone. That's what
JD Dillon:contact center agents do. The retail employee has maybe
JD Dillon:working in a specialty store, maybe there's like four other
JD Dillon:people on shift with them regularly. They're customer
JD Dillon:facing, they're constantly stocking and restocking shelves,
JD Dillon:you know, right facing merchandise executing tasks
JD Dillon:assigned by corporate. So they don't have a ton of time either.
JD Dillon:But they've got a little bit more flexibility, but they're
JD Dillon:not in front of a computer and the contact center agent is but
JD Dillon:the commonality is the fact that they're very operationally
JD Dillon:focused, they've got minutes in their day, and you're not going
JD Dillon:to be able to schedule them out to attend a zoom session. Even
JD Dillon:though the contact center agents sitting in front of a webcam
JD Dillon:potentially getting their time is difficult. So when you see
JD Dillon:the similar similarities between personas, they might benefit
JD Dillon:from similar types of learning experiences, similar types of
JD Dillon:content design, where the person like me who's maybe the
JD Dillon:corporate employee, I can make decisions, right? I can say, I'm
JD Dillon:going to carve 30 minutes out of my schedule today, in order to
JD Dillon:complete an online course, in something that I am particularly
JD Dillon:interested in, but it's not maybe something that has been
JD Dillon:prioritized by the company. So no one assigned to me that
JD Dillon:training, right? On the frontline side in the context
JD Dillon:center example, they can't make the decision to say, I'm going
JD Dillon:to take 30 minutes today.It doesn't it doesn't exist. And if
JD Dillon:they go to their manager and say, I'd like time that managers
JD Dillon:got to find time, because they're measured based on call
JD Dillon:handling time, right? They need to make sure people are there to
JD Dillon:answer the phone when the phones are ringing. So we can take a
JD Dillon:lot of that dynamic out by looking at the personas that we
JD Dillon:support, and figuring out where are there commonalities where
JD Dillon:the same tools or tactics technologies may work across
JD Dillon:different audiences, but then where there's such differences
JD Dillon:in how people do their jobs, the time available, the tools they
JD Dillon:use, the devices they use, that requires a specific approach or
JD Dillon:a specific tool to meet that, and then help the people that we
JD Dillon:work with stakeholders, decision makers, it compliance and legal,
JD Dillon:like all of our friends, help them see those differences. So
JD Dillon:they understand why we might need to make investment in
JD Dillon:certain areas, or why the technology we use for the
JD Dillon:corporate team doesn't fit on the frontline, because it's just
JD Dillon:not how frontline employees engage, because of how they do
JD Dillon:their jobs every day. So rather than make it about learning, and
JD Dillon:which is what's a good learning strategy that's important to us,
JD Dillon:that's not necessarily top of mind, for a lot of other people.
JD Dillon:Make it about what the work experience is like for different
JD Dillon:people and different personas, and what we can do to help them
JD Dillon:achieve their goals. Because again, coming back to that
JD Dillon:earlier point, if if the specialty department, the
JD Dillon:product team, right, the marketing team, whoever is
JD Dillon:trying to change behavior, whoever is trying to accomplish
JD Dillon:a goal or reach a KPI within the business, if we can say to them,
JD Dillon:I can help you connect to the people who are going to execute
JD Dillon:your strategy and help you achieve that goal. Here's what I
JD Dillon:need to do it. That's the way we should be thinking about this
JD Dillon:story about providing an equitable experience. And then
JD Dillon:learning is part of that strategy. But it's not about
JD Dillon:learning, if that makes sense. Because everyone's trying to
JD Dillon:accomplish different goals. We're specialists in the
JD Dillon:learning behavior change side of the equation, we need to connect
JD Dillon:what we do to the personas of our audiences, to the goals and
JD Dillon:priorities of the people that were enabled by or that are our
JD Dillon:stakeholders. So connecting those dots is critical to
JD Dillon:delivering that equitable experience.
Tom Moriarty:Yeah, I mean, that makes a lot of sense, right? I
Tom Moriarty:think it's I think what I'm what I'm hearing you say is it's
Tom Moriarty:about working with the stakeholder audiences that
Tom Moriarty:you're supporting, understanding their desired outcomes, and then
Tom Moriarty:trying to help facilitate that through learning. Rather than
Tom Moriarty:making learning or a learning measurable, the outcome, no
Tom Moriarty:focus on the business outcome, that that stakeholder that
Tom Moriarty:you're supporting is trying to achieve. And then help them
Tom Moriarty:understand how you can facilitate help facilitate that
Tom Moriarty:outcome through learning. Am I hearing you correctly there?
JD Dillon:Yes, and I think the most important thing we can do
JD Dillon:nowadays as L&D, it's less about content and the things we make,
JD Dillon:and it's more about the channels that we can enable the way that
JD Dillon:we can help the people who have information or the people who
JD Dillon:know, reach the people who need it. Because the priority today
JD Dillon:is unlikely to be the priority six months from now. And
JD Dillon:unlikely to be the priority 12 months from that, right? It's a
JD Dillon:constant. The priorities within an organization are moving
JD Dillon:target. And as a result, the knowledge and skill development
JD Dillon:requirements for the workforce is equally a moving target. Yes,
JD Dillon:there are certain things that are consistent, right, workplace
JD Dillon:safety being one of them, right, that's a constant priority that
JD Dillon:we're always going to address. But how can we instead of
JD Dillon:worrying about things from a programmatic perspective, right?
JD Dillon:Like, how do we structure perfect programs, so people go
JD Dillon:from A to Z, and that's what we're gonna manage? Right? That
JD Dillon:just kind of puts us in this constant tailspin of updating,
JD Dillon:updating new thing, add, add, add, and then the program that
JD Dillon:was really nice in the beginning. Now, it's kind of
JD Dillon:this mess, because you had to add 50 different things along
JD Dillon:the way, because new stakeholder, this lawyer, this
JD Dillon:new stakeholder, change new business already, yeah. So
JD Dillon:instead of starting their back out and say, okay, so what are
JD Dillon:the channels that we can use? Right? If if the executive team
JD Dillon:needs to reach the frontline with timely message? Can we help
JD Dillon:enable that channel? Right, because that channel already
JD Dillon:exists in the corporate workforce? It's Microsoft Teams,
JD Dillon:or its slack or its email. When that channel doesn't exist? How
JD Dillon:can this message a message get to the frontline? If we need to
JD Dillon:deploy skill update training, or we need to deploy product update
JD Dillon:training from the product team? What are the delivery methods
JD Dillon:that fit into each of our audiences realities? And how can
JD Dillon:we enable those channels whether it's installing the right
JD Dillon:technology, looking at different types of content? met
JD Dillon:methodologies talking about things like micro learning, so
JD Dillon:that people know how we can reach these different audiences,
JD Dillon:right, these channels are there, and different teams can use
JD Dillon:them. And then we get involved when it's the right project. So
JD Dillon:when it requires instructional design, right, when there's
JD Dillon:complexity involved in terms of what people have to learn, and
JD Dillon:the fact that they have to kind of practice and retain
JD Dillon:information, when we have to pull out our bag of tricks,
JD Dillon:we're available to do that. But instead of trying to always be
JD Dillon:the middle person, in the story, we focus our limited resources
JD Dillon:and capacity on the right projects. And then we enable
JD Dillon:others to step in and say it's okay, if the subject matter
JD Dillon:expert builds content, and deploys it to the audience. But
JD Dillon:what we don't want happening is every subject matter expert,
JD Dillon:putting together the worst PowerPoints you've ever seen,
JD Dillon:and then just tossing them over the fence at the same time at
JD Dillon:the same person who can't sit there and figure this out.
JD Dillon:Because none of this is designed to help them, right, everyone's
JD Dillon:got their own priorities, and they're hitting the same
JD Dillon:employee with them. And that employee has already got way too
JD Dillon:much to do. We can protect that experience by establishing
JD Dillon:better channels and working with our stakeholders to say this is
JD Dillon:the best way we can enable this person, this is the way to reach
JD Dillon:them. We'll even... a lot of... in my past roles, a lot of my
JD Dillon:capacity was put on training subject matter experts to write
JD Dillon:certain types of content to put together a video that was going
JD Dillon:to be delivered towards the audience so that we're
JD Dillon:protecting the limited attention, the limited capacity
JD Dillon:of the of the employee audience, and enabling people to have
JD Dillon:information to reach them when they need to. And then only when
JD Dillon:we have to get involved from a structured training perspective,
JD Dillon:do we build content and resources and activities because
JD Dillon:we can't tackle every challenge at the speed that things
JD Dillon:currently move. So we have to resource accordingly, which is
JD Dillon:why I think in a lot of cases, we have to put the channels in
JD Dillon:place, get out of the way, and then step in and support when
JD Dillon:it's the right thing to do.
Tom Moriarty:JD those are some great takeaways. I think that
Tom Moriarty:that also offers a great segue to another area that I want to I
Tom Moriarty:want to dig into but I think, you know, hopefully, the
Tom Moriarty:audience got a lot from that. I think there's a lot of valuable
Tom Moriarty:insight as it relates to stakeholder management, and, you
Tom Moriarty:know, getting the right focus for the role of learning and
Tom Moriarty:development in the organization, especially because all
Tom Moriarty:organizations as you, as you well put are always gonna have
Tom Moriarty:moving targets the goals, the goalposts, it's, it's it's not
Tom Moriarty:in the same place. So not as easy as a, you know, a soccer
Tom Moriarty:game or a football game where you know, it's 100 yards away,
Tom Moriarty:and it's not going anywhere. That's that's not how it works
Tom Moriarty:business today. You mentioned something earlier, you know, you
Tom Moriarty:talked about the challenge of it when you enable different
Tom Moriarty:subject matter experts, and the potential challenge of every
Tom Moriarty:single subject matter expert in your organization, creating
Tom Moriarty:their own beautiful, lovely PowerPoint, and driving it down
Tom Moriarty:the throat of the the frontline worker or the frontline learner
Tom Moriarty:all at the same time. Right. Yeah. And you mentioned earlier
Tom Moriarty:that those same employees, as you will put are very time
Tom Moriarty:limited, right, the amount of time that they have. And,
Tom Moriarty:frankly, maybe even desire that they have to focus their energy
Tom Moriarty:on learning or developing a Skill versus just completing
Tom Moriarty:their tasks and getting out the door is really limited. So how
Tom Moriarty:does the Learning and Development Professional
Tom Moriarty:navigate that? What do they do to get learner buy in to get
Tom Moriarty:that audience truly engaged and participating in in the training
Tom Moriarty:that they're offering, whether it be through subject matter
Tom Moriarty:experts or something that I'm facilitating directly?
JD Dillon:The biggest key is relevance. So for as Axonify,
JD Dillon:for example, what we do is we asked frontline employees to log
JD Dillon:into Axonify for maybe five minutes, every shift. That is a
JD Dillon:big ask, we know that is a big ask when they have so much to
JD Dillon:do, especially in a limited staffing environment. And like
JD Dillon:you said, people have different priorities, different goals
JD Dillon:different, they're there for different reasons. So in order
JD Dillon:for that five minutes to matter, that five minutes has to be
JD Dillon:relevant to me, the employee, I have to get something's gonna
JD Dillon:help me. And no matter why someone is there, I firmly
JD Dillon:believe... and and having a background in operational
JD Dillon:management helps me make statements like this... I
JD Dillon:believe everyone wants to do a good job. I don't believe
JD Dillon:everyone wants to make a career at this, right? They don't
JD Dillon:necessarily want to be with your company for 25 years. However,
JD Dillon:today, they want to do good job, they want to be safe, they want
JD Dillon:to get hurt. They don't want a customer to yell at them. They
JD Dillon:want to be able to answer the question, right? They want to
JD Dillon:feel good about that. So if that five minutes can be spent
JD Dillon:helping someone feel better about their ability to do the
JD Dillon:job, helping them feel more confident, helping them feel
JD Dillon:like they're clued in, they have the information or helping them
JD Dillon:feel like if they are interested in pursuing other avenues and
JD Dillon:opportunities that they have. They're being invested in, right
JD Dillon:that learning how to do the job better and building new skills
JD Dillon:and knowledge is part of this. And maybe it's not in a lot of
JD Dillon:other jobs or other jobs they've had in the past. And it's
JD Dillon:actually a factor that contributes to them wanting to
JD Dillon:stay and do a good job in this organization. So it begins with
JD Dillon:relevance that every time someone accesses learning
JD Dillon:resources, every time someone logs into the learning platform,
JD Dillon:they get what's useful to them. Not what everyone got, because
JD Dillon:well, that's what was sent out today, or someone required
JD Dillon:everyone to take the training. And that's where things are
JD Dillon:concepts like adaptive learning, personalization, data and
JD Dillon:measurement, all of that comes into play, because technology
JD Dillon:does allow us to figure out, you know, for you today, what's the
JD Dillon:best thing that we can work on with you today, as opposed to
JD Dillon:the person next to you, maybe has a different area of need, or
JD Dillon:different interest. So we're gonna focus on something
JD Dillon:different with that individual, even though you do the same job,
JD Dillon:we want to make sure that training is hyper relevant to
JD Dillon:you, so that every time you come back, you get something useful,
JD Dillon:and you say, this is worth my time. It's not just something my
JD Dillon:manager asked me to do, and definitely not doing it because
JD Dillon:some L&D person I've never met asked me to do it, right. It's
JD Dillon:something that's helping me. And then on top of that, you can
JD Dillon:layer in additional tactics, especially from the beginning,
JD Dillon:because the idea of relevance and value-add is very much
JD Dillon:intrinsic motivation, right, we want people to do the thing,
JD Dillon:because they want to do the thing, not because I asked them
JD Dillon:to or told them to, or because I tricked them into doing it,
JD Dillon:right. We want learning to be something people are invested in
JD Dillon:and own themselves. And that comes from relevance. But at the
JD Dillon:same time, sometimes you have to get that attention, or find
JD Dillon:other ways to start building the habit. Because one of the things
JD Dillon:we talked about it exemplifies building a habit of everyday
JD Dillon:learning, making something that creating an experience that
JD Dillon:people can complete once a shift, and it becomes just, it's
JD Dillon:not something you got to ask about. It's just something you
JD Dillon:do. Like all the other things you do at your your job every
JD Dillon:day, it's just part of the job, right? So how do you establish
JD Dillon:that for people who maybe haven't ever thought about
JD Dillon:workplace training that way, maybe in their previous jobs
JD Dillon:training was once a quarter, they put me in a room and they
JD Dillon:tell me all the stuff, and no one actually learned or I have
JD Dillon:to sit in the back room for multiple days in onboarding and
JD Dillon:after onboarding, I don't really get much when it comes to
JD Dillon:development activity. Or maybe this is my first job. And I
JD Dillon:think learning looks like school. Right? Because school,
JD Dillon:you go to a class for a period of time, and it's over and
JD Dillon:you're done learning that, that doesn't look like workplace
JD Dillon:learning, especially to me. So how do we get people out of that
JD Dillon:mode of learning is a place and a time to learning is a
JD Dillon:continuous habit and activity. That's where tactics like
JD Dillon:gamification come in. So it's about layering in these
JD Dillon:different mechanics and understanding your workplace
JD Dillon:culture and the people you're supporting. So you can craft an
JD Dillon:experience that makes sense for your audience and your work
JD Dillon:environment, and then use these types of mechanics and and an
JD Dillon:experience that's simple and straightforward, right? So it's
JD Dillon:not hard for people to find it. It's not hard for people to get
JD Dillon:to content. I once asked my team in a previous job, how many
JD Dillon:clicks does it take to play a video in our learning management
JD Dillon:system? And the answer was seven. And I said, how many
JD Dillon:clicks does it take to play a YouTube video? One? What do you
JD Dillon:think's going to happen here? Right, we're being judged at the
JD Dillon:bar of consumer technology, not just workplace technology. So if
JD Dillon:you craft an experience, that's easy to get to, right in the
JD Dillon:flow of work, if I'm holding a device as part of my job, can I
JD Dillon:get to my resources on this device, rather than having to
JD Dillon:put this device down and go to a place I never go to in order to
JD Dillon:experience training? Right? We've already lost in that
JD Dillon:scenario. So is it easy to get to is easy to understand, right?
JD Dillon:I have to click through a bunch of menus or click through a
JD Dillon:bunch of websites that I don't know, in order to get where I
JD Dillon:need to go. And then when I'm there? Is it an engaging
JD Dillon:experience that may again, bring me back for different reasons,
JD Dillon:because this is, dare I say, fun to do? Write every day? And then
JD Dillon:ultimately, is this helping me if every time I come into the
JD Dillon:learning platform, it helps me remember something? It helps me
JD Dillon:learn something new, it helps me? Oh, I didn't. I never
JD Dillon:thought about it that way. If you get that experience every
JD Dillon:day, then learning becomes part of work. So that's what it takes
JD Dillon:to engage a large distributed workforce and a lot of cases a
JD Dillon:workforce that L&D rarely physically sees, right? If you
JD Dillon:have 75,000 employees and 40 people on your L&D team, you
JD Dillon:never interact with most of your employees. But how do you
JD Dillon:understand their day to day experience enough so that you
JD Dillon:craft an experience that makes it feel like to that employee,
JD Dillon:that the person who put this together understands me, what I
JD Dillon:go through what my day to day looks like and what I need, and
JD Dillon:the right combination of things like game mechanics, data, AI,
JD Dillon:personalization, mobile technology, it's about bringing
JD Dillon:all of the things we've been talking about often in isolation
JD Dillon:for like, the last 10 years, bringing all of those pieces
JD Dillon:together, because that's what it takes to put by that equitable
JD Dillon:experience we're talking about. And it is unfortunately, more
JD Dillon:challenging for a distributed workforce that in large numbers
JD Dillon:that work in different regions, different countries, like you
JD Dillon:said, very time limited, those are a lot of meaningful
JD Dillon:challenges. But I've worked with organizations where we figured
JD Dillon:out how to provide an equitable experience to a person driving a
JD Dillon:moped in a country that I've never been to as part of a ride
JD Dillon:sharing service, where the person is carrying an Android
JD Dillon:device that you can't buy on the on the internet, the only way to
JD Dillon:test your application on that device is to eBay old devices,
JD Dillon:they also don't necessarily have great internet connection, and
JD Dillon:there is no Wi Fi on the back of the moped. So if you can figure
JD Dillon:that out how to get that person relevant support that they'll
JD Dillon:use every day, everything else suddenly gets a lot easier. So
JD Dillon:it's always interesting, when people will ask me and my team,
JD Dillon:you know, we have limited bandwidth in our retail stores,
JD Dillon:right? The bandwidth is all taken up by the point of sale
JD Dillon:system, business processes, and whatnot like, and our elearning
JD Dillon:always like buffers for like 10 minutes when people are trying
JD Dillon:to load it. Like, if we can reach someone via cell service
JD Dillon:on an Android device is 10 years old, who's riding a motorcycle
JD Dillon:in a country, none of us have been to, I think, I think I can
JD Dillon:handle your retail store. It's making sure we can, we can
JD Dillon:handle those types of environments. Because just you
JD Dillon:know, I think the overall message is, it's possible, you
JD Dillon:can reach everybody, it just requires the right amount of
JD Dillon:effort and investment. In order to make sure you're architecting
JD Dillon:experiences that make sense for people and not expecting them to
JD Dillon:come to you, we have to go to them. And that is now fully
JD Dillon:possible for different types of workers.
Tom Moriarty:I love that there's, there's a lot there,
Tom Moriarty:there's a lot to unpack. But I love that I love the thought.
Tom Moriarty:First of all, I love the possibility in that example of
Tom Moriarty:reaching the worker on Android device that you can only get on
Tom Moriarty:eBay on the back of a moped. And if you could do that, you know,
Tom Moriarty:there's a lot that can be accomplished. And I love that
Tom Moriarty:that's very, hopefully should be a very motivating message for
Tom Moriarty:the audience. I think that there's a lot of value in that
Tom Moriarty:concept that you shared, of maybe start by focusing on
Tom Moriarty:making learning for the frontline employee a habit and
Tom Moriarty:start by having a clear focus on how do I accomplish that first.
Tom Moriarty:And once I've accomplished that, then I can start to add levels
Tom Moriarty:of complexity to what it is that they're learning, right. But I
Tom Moriarty:have to cross that bridge before I can even get to the second
Tom Moriarty:bridge, to be able to make sure that you know the program or the
Tom Moriarty:content that I'm putting together ultimately, is
Tom Moriarty:something that's effective. I think that's... I think that's
Tom Moriarty:really great. I guess to wrap up with a with a final question, if
Tom Moriarty:there was one takeaway that you would hope, a learning and
Tom Moriarty:development team, let's say at a large retail organization with
Tom Moriarty:500 locations and frontline employees and a contact center,
Tom Moriarty:you know, people working in a store, if there's one takeaway
Tom Moriarty:that you would want them to take from this conversation, and you
Tom Moriarty:could only pick one, what would that be?
JD Dillon:It would be that you can accomplish a lot in five
JD Dillon:minutes. Right? Five minutes does not sound like a lot and
JD Dillon:learning and development, especially when we're used to,
JD Dillon:like you said very complex products, right, very complex
JD Dillon:training programs, onboarding experiences that take weeks, in
JD Dillon:a lot of cases, any any backup to well, what can you really
JD Dillon:learn in five minutes, you're not going to learn how to fly an
JD Dillon:airplane in five minutes. I completely agree. Right? I'm not
JD Dillon:saying it's only five minutes, the only only version of
JD Dillon:training we ever do an example of frontline employees. In a
JD Dillon:retail environment, there's a lot of hands on training, right?
JD Dillon:There's a lot of peer to peer training, manager led training
JD Dillon:where you are physically doing the job. And that's a huge part
JD Dillon:of the story. None of that goes away. But like you said, when
JD Dillon:it's grounded on this foundation, that we're going to
JD Dillon:help incrementally improve people's knowledge, we're going
JD Dillon:to reinforce people's knowledge that there is some thing about
JD Dillon:learning that is built into the workflow, whether it's a push
JD Dillon:experience that I get, you know, push that right fit activity,
JD Dillon:I'm going to focus on today, whether it's I can use my
JD Dillon:handheld device to pull up information when I need to when
JD Dillon:I need to solve a problem. When we embed the experience of
JD Dillon:learning into the day in this way. It changes the way you talk
JD Dillon:about workplace learning, it changes the way that you value
JD Dillon:these ideas, because you're opening up this channel that you
JD Dillon:can then and building this habit that you can leverage as things
JD Dillon:change. So instead of having to try to get people's attention
JD Dillon:every time there's a new program every time you want to train
JD Dillon:them on something new and you got to go through the rigmarole
JD Dillon:of how are we going to schedule people? Right, can we how long
JD Dillon:is it going to take we got to make a spreadsheet so we can
JD Dillon:send out to the managers of the people who are delinquent so we
JD Dillon:can make sure we get 100% Right? All of that starts to become
JD Dillon:less and less of a burden. When you think about how can we build
JD Dillon:that habit to say, So what are you going to do for five minutes
JD Dillon:a day? And the other thing that I didn't mention before, is that
JD Dillon:when you think about learning in terms of minutes, instead of
JD Dillon:programs, you're actually closer to how learning really works.
JD Dillon:Because you can create a great two hour online course, it can
JD Dillon:be the most dynamic and engaging piece of content you've ever
JD Dillon:seen. People are not going to remember most of it, right?
JD Dillon:Unless they immediately walk out the door and start applying that
JD Dillon:information. And that drives retention. Right? Great. If you
JD Dillon:can deliver it at the moment of need. That way, we usually don't
JD Dillon:have that luxury, especially at the scale of trying to support
JD Dillon:400,000 People who are all in very different places, when it
JD Dillon:comes to their development. And when they're going to maybe deal
JD Dillon:with a particular customer objection, or they're going to
JD Dillon:handle a particular product or try to upsell a particular
JD Dillon:thing, right. It's all very unpredictable in that way. So
JD Dillon:when you distill it back down to say, instead of trying to hit
JD Dillon:everyone with a firehose of content, because I can only
JD Dillon:access them once in a while. Instead, if I can reach people
JD Dillon:for five minutes a day or five minutes a shift, I can
JD Dillon:incrementally grow their knowledge, right, I can say,
JD Dillon:we're going to focus on the foundational pieces, and then
JD Dillon:you might accelerate in that five minutes a day much faster
JD Dillon:than the other person next to you. And we're going to spend
JD Dillon:some more time on the foundation with that person. But here,
JD Dillon:we're gonna accelerate you forward towards additional
JD Dillon:information towards new skills that might help you pursue
JD Dillon:additional opportunities. But when it's when it's grounded in
JD Dillon:five minutes a day learning becomes a habit, learning
JD Dillon:becomes part of the culture.
Tom Moriarty:I love that I think that's a great takeaway. I
Tom Moriarty:really liked that. And the other statement that you made that I
Tom Moriarty:think that sums up well to is think of learning in minutes,
Tom Moriarty:not in programs. That that's that's a fantastic takeaway.
Tom Moriarty:And, you know, I think it's one that, you know, hopefully the
Tom Moriarty:audience can absolutely use for the frontline employee. But
Tom Moriarty:frankly, I think any, anybody that's receiving learning, and
Tom Moriarty:you're right, that it works in in time, not in, not in programs
Tom Moriarty:or courses. JD, thank you so much for your for your time.
Tom Moriarty:This has been a fantastic conversation. I think it's been
Tom Moriarty:very enjoyable. I'm sure the audience has pages and pages and
Tom Moriarty:notes I know I do. If anybody in the audience wants to hear more
Tom Moriarty:about what you are doing or what Axonify is doing, or get more of
Tom Moriarty:the valuable content and information that you shared,
Tom Moriarty:where can they find you?
JD Dillon:Sure, you can find out more about Axonify
JD Dillon:axonify.com. You can find me on LinkedIn, just search JD Dylan,
JD Dillon:there's only one I in my last name, despite what everyone
JD Dillon:seems to believe. And then also, I'd recommend that every two
JD Dillon:weeks on Wednesdays at 1130 Eastern time, I host a live
JD Dillon:stream with Axonify where we bring on smart people from
JD Dillon:across the industry and 25 minutes or less, I ask five
JD Dillon:questions about a very pointed part of the story of workplace
JD Dillon:learning and experience. We talk about things like retail
JD Dillon:transformation, we're talking about games and learning with
JD Dillon:Karl, we're going to talk about the skills story with Dani
JD Dillon:Johnson from RedThread. So I urge people if you want to dig
JD Dillon:into more of these types of themes, check out our LinkedIn
JD Dillon:live stream that's every other Wednesday 11:30am Eastern Time.
JD Dillon:And you'll see plenty of from me on LinkedIn sharing, when
JD Dillon:upcoming episodes will be airing. And you can find it all
JD Dillon:of our recorded episodes are on YouTube as well. So if you go to
JD Dillon:Axonify, his YouTube channel, you can check out our past
JD Dillon:episodes.
Tom Moriarty:Well, thank you so much. JD, I really appreciate
Tom Moriarty:your time. This is a very enjoyable and informative
Tom Moriarty:conversation for me. So I really appreciate and I know our
Tom Moriarty:audience well. Thanks so much and have a great rest of your
Tom Moriarty:day.
JD Dillon:Bye, everybody.
Tom Moriarty:The Secret Society of Success is hosted by Mimeo,
Tom Moriarty:the better way to print. Check out our sister podcast, Talk of
Tom Moriarty:the Trade, for tips and tricks for sales and marketing leaders.
Tom Moriarty:Visit www.mimeo.com for more information.
